ma yueh liang demos on ppl who don't know taiji

[ShortFormMike]

not the first guy but esp check out the fat guy at the end. don't think he knew much taiji.

for those who don't believe in ma's superb skill: please point me to a video of someone better than him. the idea of someone even close to his level is worth checking out w/ an open mind.

[Josealb]

Mike, Cant comment on the clip because im at work...but allow me to ask you a personal question.

Would you say that Ma's level of skill is achievable by you, on the long run, given enough training time and experience insight?

[Void]

MYL said it took him 10 years to find his Qi and the next 30 years to learn how to use it.

[Martin2]

Hi All,

as before I like to comment as a student of Ma Jiangbao (son of Ma Yueliang), who met Ma Yueliang several times.

Ma Yueliang was one of the best martial artist I know but he was never and never wanted to be a superhuman or martial arts super hero.

I trained with MYL and saw him doing PH with a lot of people. Most didn't hop around - some did (may be out of respect).

I never did hoping and I think it was not expected. We had a lot of fun anyway. Nobody was unhappy.

The heavy guy on the clip knew minimum the double hand rotation. In Wu Tai Chi Chuan it takes quite a time to get there. So the guy was not unexperienced.

So all in all maybe a good show - for my taste a bad show - I like it more when MYL shows his real skill and people do not hop around. He just waits for the attack and let it drop into the emptyness and the strikes back with a hard push:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh1nj74kRA8



I never met anybody else moving Ma Jiangbao around like this.

But anyway - tastes are different. Without it the world might be boring.

Can one become like MYL - why not -start early with martial arts - marry into a traditional martial arts family -train for a very long time hard - be intelligent and talented - have luck and be humble- that' the start

All the best and thx for posting

Martin2

[Nick C]

I think as long as you dont have some mental block in thinking Master Ma (or anybody else for that matter) is superhuman, then of course others can attain their level of skill. In fact we should be actively encouraging ourselves and our students to aim for that goal, as if we can not reach the same level of ability as our teachers, then what ever art we are studying will slowly degrade and for all intents and purposes die out.

That certainly doesnt mean we will all reach that level of course - time, opportunity, life, commitments - so many things can distract us. But we should all be continually trying to improve.

[Chris McKinley]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Martin2....lotsa nice theatrics, dancing, hopping and general buffoonery, but doesn't really show anything more than that the guy has some good push hands skills. Yet another "let's make the old man look good" clip like we get all the time. The second clip is still nothing but push hands, but at least it's the guy's real push hands skills. The second clip actually sells the idea that the guy might have some real skill beyond pushing hands.

[Josealb]

Martin, i agree with you regarding anyone arriving at Ma's level with luck and tons of quality hard work. Thanks for providing a more down to earth explanation regarding Ma's skill.

[Josealb]

Woa...now i just saw the clip.


I understand the level of showmanship some students had with him...but at 1:40....it just crosses the line. If im supposed to be a MA legend, and i touch a guy, i would not want him to go flying thru a window. Makes me look bad.

[ShortFormMike]

i don't really disagree w/ anything anyone's said. but do you think it's harder to do what he's doing do his son, a life long player, or make rank beginners bounce around.

my teacher is definitely no ma yue liang but when i first started i was doing all kinds of crazy shit. not out of respect or anything, out of suckyness. of course it doesn't happen like that any more. i didn't think it was a big deal.

jose, i don't think i could get as good as Ma since i've read what his practice schedule was like and i know i'll never practice that much let alone practice such a well preserved system.

on the other hand, i read ma didn't really understand taiji until he was 80 (according to him anyway). i'm not even sure what that means.

all i know is i've never met someone who practiced 5,000hrs who was better than a guy who practiced 10,000hrs.

[edededed]

Ma Yueliang worked really hard, had talent, and had a very good teacher. To at least approach being the "next" Ma, you would have to at possess/do these things (including a teacher who could teach you the same things that Ma learned).

[Fubo]

Martin, nice post... It would have been nice to see a more youthful Ma demo a variety of Wu style technique.

[Nick C]

Ma Yueliang worked really hard, had talent, and had a very good teacher. To at least approach being the "next" Ma, you would have to at possess/do these things (including a teacher who could teach you the same things that Ma learned).

Although there are also some very limited people who excell beyond what their teachers are capable of / can teach, but that relates to the first part - talent and real hard work. Most of us dont put in the time to come close to those of Ma's generation who had the skills.

For me part of the appeal of TJQ is that you can continually improve throughout your life, no matter your age, as long as hard work (both physical and mental) is always present, irrespective of the final level we obtain.

[grzegorz]

not the first guy but esp check out the fat guy at the end. don't think he knew much taiji.

for those who don't believe in ma's superb skill: please point me to a video of someone better than him. the idea of someone even close to his level is worth checking out w/ an open mind.

Here's is a vid GM Ma pushing with his disciple the highly skilled Laoshi Qian Cao Qun starting a little after 2:00.

He's the last player GM Ma is pushing with.

Qian Laoshi was known in Shanghai as having the best push hands outside of the Ma family.

Some people got it, some people don't.

I'm joking of course, the reality is GM Ma's skills were sublime and I'm sure most players would have looked like absolute beginners when crossing hands with Ma.

Are some people giving him "big face?" Probably, but I think the result still would have been the same.

[Martin2]

Hello Grzegorz,

thx for the clip. I met a lot of people of the old guard in Shanghai. Qian Caoqun was the best of them, IMHO. I did quite a lot of Ph with him. It was exactly the same feeling as with Ma Yueliang, Ma Jiangbao or Ma Jianglin (see clip below). MYL spoke only highest of Qian.

And there it comes. He emphasized to become good one depends highly on ones gongfu brothers and sisters. This is for shure an important point. One needs not only a good teachers and the true will to learn, but also the right student enviroment to develop. As soon as one reaches a certain level, it is not that easy to find people for training on a daily or twice a daily term.

That's what Ma Jiangbao once said, when he was asked how he became good in PH: "Oh, I had the guidance of my parents and trained every day in the morning and in the evening with my brothers, sisters and my friends (MYL and Wu Yinghuan have 3 daughters and 5 sons)."

Wow, who can do that? I would love to.

As for MYL - I asked once Ma Jiangbao, when he was best and he said about the age of 35-40. Till this time he fought against 10.000 people (means really a lot) from all kind of martial arts - not only pushhands and he was top fit.

Hi Chris, yes, the PH clip only proves, that MYL was good in PH. The truth is of course I do not know if MYL was still good at sparring or fighting with 90. May be or I think for shure may be not. But I think it is redicolous to believe this anyway. Who is good at fighting with 90 - even a grand grand grand ... master. Thus I follow you PH is not sparring and is not fighting. It is a training tool. Luckily thus one can enjoy training also with 90 years old people, learn from them a lot and get very inspired. It is just very surprising, when one stands up against an very old man and can not move him an inch. The greatest thing for me was, how much fun MYL had doing PH. If I would become 85 years old - long way to go anyway - and still have so much fun with MA - I would be more than happy.

Hello Fubo,

I would love to see that too. I have only pictures of older times (sorry no PH), which one can see here:





Here the clip of Ma Jianglin in white:



About the hopping around - for me it is just a chinese custom - like in Japan where you clap the mat when you give up. You could also shout stop, but you clap the mat - so OK. In China in PH you hop, when you give up. I personally don not like it. It looks silly for me - but different countries - different habits- why not.


All the best
Martin2

[stan baker]

this kind of push hands does not show real taiji

stan