Strong Legs

[bailewen]

Also, those mountain dudes legs are huge.

Huge leg is not strong leg. A strong leg a leg that has nice shape, slim but not bulky.

They weren't huge by American standards. Just huge compared to the rest of their physique.The guys would have sometimes toothpick arms and probably 28 inch waists but then would have calves that were bigger than mine and I weigh about 185.

[Scott P. Phillips]

John Wang, just find a kid and do the experiment. I put my weight on their shoulders using my arms and I pop up on my tip toes to make sure my weight is balanced safely, but they've got 90% of my weight and often I can push up into the air off of their shoulders while they are in motion. Kind of like one of those peng jin show-off routines.

The comment on my blog about sadistic voyeurs was really self-reflective, I enjoy seeing a little cognitive dissonance. As it turned out there wasn't too much but the conversation has been interesting anyway. As to Rum Soaked Fist being "unhinged," I thought that was a prerequisite? And I assure you all my working definition of "squirm" is purely visceral--no insults intended. As to me being condescending, well, I prefer to think of myself as having an arrogant streak. I think I'm right, and I suppose it shows, but I'm here to learn. RSF certainly has an interesting mix of readers and posters, even if it is a little on the excessively masculine unhinged side of the equation.

Chi Belly, do you really want to see me in spandex?
Bailewen, yes you're right I've seen some monster calves on Chinese men and women--but I think it is from riding bicycles with the seat too low--or maybe just a genetic difference.

All of this is just sauce for the meat and potatoes which is that for all of Chinese history Daoists have kept the precept, "Cultivate Weakness". If Daoists had any influence on martial arts development, and most people think they did, than it is likely that they tried to figure out how to practice martial arts and cultivate weakness at the same time.

[Andy_S]

Scott:

SNIP
None of that negates the fact that I try not to let my muscle get bigger.
SNIP

From what I can see of you, you are succeeding, so congratulations. I note you are also developing a bit of a pot, though I thought that was more in line with Buddhist tradition than Taoist? Whatever. But tell me, please: What is it you are doing that you suspect might lead to increases in your muscle size? And how exactly are you guarding against this possibility?

RE Skinny Legs, Tree Trunk Legs
I take issue with this idea that high level IMA people must have a certain type of physique. We have already had the "thick body development" argument. Now we seem to be having the "skinny leg" argument. Clearly, humans have different body types, and these are refleceted in IMA: At one end of the spectrum are people like Ma Yueh-liang (who DID have skinny legs - there are pics of him practicing in shorts), at the other are people like Wang Shu-chin (who most certainly did not). People with certain body types may favor certain strategies, techniques and weapons. By the same token, they may not favor other strategies, techniques and weapons. Point? Body type is not the be-all and end-all in IMA efficacy.

That having been said, two points:
(1) Many of the OLD masters may, indeed, have skinny legs (Ma being a case in point.) But are you sure that when younger, they were not better built? Uyeshiba Morihei is a case in point: He is commonly thought of as a whispy old man, but in his youth, when he developed his rep, he was a pretty solid gent. Are you sure you are not basing your martial ideal of thigh developmet on oldsters, who will have suffered a certain amount of muscular degredation?

God knows, a lot of people do "old man's martial arts" even though they are in their 20s or 30s...and even though the old men they follow trained a lot harder when they were their students' age.

(2) All my teachers (none of whom are older than those in their 50s) have had powerful legs. IMHO, strengthening the foundation is critical in CMA.

RE: Daoism and the "Cultivation of Weakness"
Daoism is a philosophy and a religion - and yes, I am sure it does have performance and mystical elements, which is were you seem to be coming from. Fair enough. However, other MA were developed for combat, which is an entirely different sphere of human endeavour, with different requirements and functionalities.

Given the chasm between the fields, I think it is unwise to overstate the influence of philosophical/mystical/religious concepts on fighting arts; these arts can be broadly comprehended and dissected using tactical and biomechanical principles.

But I grant you, this opinion is up for debate. And I also grant you, there is almost certainly confusion between mystical/performance/health promoting/combative MA.

[Patrick]

Maybe people should learn some basic knowledge about their bodies. Then there would be lesser misconceptions about strength training. and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

[Void]

As to me being condescending, well, I prefer to think of myself as having an arrogant streak. I think I'm right, and I suppose it shows, but I'm here to learn.

Scott - the arrogance won't help you learn, neither will thinking you're right. Seeking dissonance and insincere motives in discourse will only stand in the way of being a good man. You might be generous and sincere in real life - if so why not be congruent and extend it through your whole life. I think Shawn Segler once said something along the lines of 'If you're an asshole to the waiter - but good to your friends - you're still an asshole'

So, not that you are asking for any advice (to paraphrase a recent post of yours) - but I'd work on emptying your cup and being a good simple man.

SINCERE words are not sweet,
Sweet words are not sincere.
Good men are not argumentative,
The argumentative are not good.
The wise are not erudite,
The erudite are not wise.

The Sage does not take to hoarding.
The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.
The more he gives, the more he abounds.

The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.
The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive with anyone

[heel_no_up]

To quote my bagua teacher "Bu Fuzhu Gung Fa, Bu Bagua" (No supplementary conditioning, No bagua). There were/are so many exercises for strengthening the legs, why wouldn't you? The most inherently strong movement(s) come from the legs. From my understanding, most of baguazhang comes from the legs. Anywho, my two cents.

[SPJ]

To quote my bagua teacher "Bu Fuzhu Gung Fa, Bu Bagua" (No supplementary conditioning, No bagua). There were/are so many exercises for strengthening the legs, why wouldn't you? The most inherently strong movement(s) come from the legs. From my understanding, most of baguazhang comes from the legs. Anywho, my two cents.

yes. Ba Gua relies on walking ability and strength. There are many and many walking drills.

Ba Gua also relies on stance change. such as from horse riding stance to bow and arrow stance etc.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6j_pQjwblo

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DFcG6ZfD5Q

basic kicks or leg methods of Ba Gua.

[Scott P. Phillips]

That's very sweet Void.
You empty your cup, I'll empty my legs.
"The greatest good is like water."--Laozi

[Daniel]

The comment on my blog about sadistic voyeurs was really self-reflective, I enjoy seeing a little cognitive dissonance. As it turned out there wasn't too much but the conversation has been interesting anyway. As to Rum Soaked Fist being "unhinged," I thought that was a prerequisite? And I assure you all my working definition of "squirm" is purely visceral--no insults intended. As to me being condescending, well, I prefer to think of myself as having an arrogant streak. I think I'm right, and I suppose it shows, but I'm here to learn. RSF certainly has an interesting mix of readers and posters, even if it is a little on the excessively masculine unhinged side of the equation.

Well... I don´t know what to say. Since I seem to remember that Daoism mentions that a sage treats the common people like straw dogs, and Sunzi Bingfa talking something about knowing yourself yet not knowing others, I guess you´re onto a good thing.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Hank Fist]

legs:

[chimerical tortoise]

Scott,

Are you suggesting that all "internal arts" are the same? I don't have the experience that you seem to have, but having studied the basics in Chu ving tsun and Cheng baguazhang, and met people with functional gongfu of both, I would say that you seem to expect every IMA to conform to your experiences.

FYI my ving tsun sifu has one of the most remarkable shenfa I've ever seen, in most categorisations I think it would be considered 'internal' as the aim is not to use 'muscle' or the 'front of the head' and with practice consisting mainly of zhan zhuang. But he has a strong body and does not like talking about internal, chi, etc.

Meeks, who has the goods in Cheng baguazhang, is the other IMA teacher whom I've met in any depth. While he talks about internal, I don't see that being reached by any way other than rigorous practice of drills that strengthen 'external' attributes. Everything that is 'internal' is explainable by very tangible physical phenomena.

Both these examples are (a) very effective self-defense and (b) completely different in how (a) is reached. My point is, by the definitions I've been taught, 'internal' is a means to a goal: whatever keeps your face from getting rearranged. And the IMA spectrum is way broader than I can really 'know'. So why the broad generalisations?

Last week my sifu said, "relaxed is not weak". I think that you have decided on "weak is relaxed" instead. Why do you want to be weak? I dont think I'll ever be relaxed enough, or strong enough, but I think I'm weak enough as-is already. Hence the need to train.

oh, and I fight like a lady. Even though RSF has mostly male membership, we respect women.

[Chris Fleming]

Sad that the internal arts have become hijacked by the limp-noodle hipster chi patrol.

[blindsage]

Sad that the internal arts have become hijacked by the limp-noodle hipster chi patrol.

Truer words......

[Areios]

I would like to ask you Scott P. Phillips not attacking you just courius. Can you do what the child can? (just with bigger weight off cours) And if spec and proper shenfa is needed to do internal someone like me with a leg that is not functioning as a normal leg can't do IMA?