Adulterer in Chief?

[D_Glenn]

Now your just being intentionally obtuse. Either that or you simply refuse to look into non-Christian sources.

I provided several Orthodox Jewish translations. I'm talking about people who, in many cases, have Hebrew as their native language. I provided not only a translation but the etymology of the word.

חמד

Look it up. Three letter root, just like all Hebrew verbs: Heh, Mem, Dalet. Same verb used in Proverbs 12:12 where the King James translates the exact same verb as "desireth"

12The wicked desireth the net of evil men: but the root of the righteous yieldeth fruit.

Here is the original Hebrew:
חָמַד רָשָׁע, מְצוֹד רָעִים; וְשֹׁרֶשׁ צַדִּיקִים יִתֵּן

Here is Exodus 20:13 in the original Hebrew:
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ}
The relevant verb is the 3 word in the verse.

Every Bible I've come across translates it "adultery"

Here is the American Standard Version translating the term as "covet":
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... ersion/ASV

Here is the King James version of 20:17 where, yet again, the verb is translated as "covet"
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

Jewish Publication Society
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm

New International Version
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

New American Standard
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=NASB

So you've never come across the American Standard, The King James, The Jewish Publication Society, The New International Version, The New American Standard Version... .

Just what bible are you relying on. I am actually finding it kind of difficult to trace down a version that actually translates the term as "adultery". You must have a pretty narrow cannon.

Nice.

.

[bailewen]

Fact is, Chris is doing G_d's work here on this thread. This is the most Torah study I've done in ages. Dug up an online Hebrew-English dictionary, subscribed to a mailing list for learning biblical Hebrew and read up on all sort of Law that I wasn't really that familiar with like the laws of Niddah (separation of men and women) just to get my ducks in a row before I posted.

The Pirke Avot (sayings of out fathers) says:

The following are the activities for which a person is rewarded in this world, and again in the world-to-come:
honoring one’s father and mother, deeds of loving kindness, and making peace between a person and his
neighbor. The study of Torah, however, is as important as all of them together.

So thank you Chris for motivating me to pick it up and do some research.

And there is also the most central prayer of the entire Jewish faith, the Schma (aka Deut 6:4-9), more specifically, Deut 6:7:

...and shalt talk of them [the commandments] when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Which is why although I avoid preaching I never turn down a chance to debate this stuff. I was Bar Mitzvahd but really most of my education came from debating with devout Christians or getting drunk with ultra Orthodox Jews.

[edededed]

"I don't think Plato, or any other translation is really reliable"

I hope you get my example. But then again, I wonder why you said the above. Considering that there isn't much discussion (that I've heard anyway) regarding mistaken translations and "lost meanings" in Plato's works or whatnot, but there are those who say such things regarding the Bible. To me it's all sophistry, and I find it funny. Like of like asking what the meaning of "is" is.

I would say that the meaning of a work is more important if you consider the work THE leading principles for life. People use the Bible in this way, and thus its meaning because very important. If one is very interested in Plato and other books, then sure, reading them in their original languages is useful and interesting, but they cannot eclipse the importance of books that people use to guide them in life.

As a CMA board, we do sometimes talk about this kind of thing here regarding CMA texts, though (for example, some people sometimes ask about the original text for one of Sun Lutang's books). I think most people are aware that things get lost in translation, even for things like CMA.

As for "is" - a native English speaker doesn't really have to think about what it means (as they already know). It DOES become important to folks who do not understand English natively, though (although "is" usually has something that is fairly cognate). More difficult English concepts for Asian folks include "the" or "a"...

Sophistry is a funny thing to say - why is wanting to confirm original meanings sophistry?

[Chris Fleming]

"Sophistry is a funny thing to say - why is wanting to confirm original meanings sophistry?"

Never meant to imply that--rather I am saying that people go to great lengths to cover their errors in supposed "scholarship". You can be really good at being really bad, many Bible "scholars" can write Ph.d papers and be completely off of the mark, etc. Some want to quibble over every tiddle when the "original meaning" is right there in their face, so I often laugh at when people go to elaborate arguments trying to tell me what the Bible says when it's just right there. Like with the above "covet" your neighbor's wife thing. Now what does that mean? Is the meaning truly different from adultery? Really? Honestly? If someone says yes then I just laugh. Is that communicating something somehow other than what is just right there in your face? Translations get better and better yet it seems that people who want their loopholes ignore them. It's ironic--a dumbing down of the Bible by trying to look smart.

[bailewen]

You still didn't bother to read the whole commandment.

thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife

Wife.

So, once again, for the nth time, as long as the woman is not married....

Looking forward to seeing what sort of semantic nonsense you are going to come up with for this one.

[bailewen]

I used to live around the corner from a Habad house in San Francisco. I was a waiter at the time so I generally had to work on the Sabbath but as soon as I got home, if I made it by 11'ish say, I'd clean up and head over. By that time, all the actual kosher wine was generally gone (that's a good thing actually) but there were usually grain spirits around. Apparently you can make kiddish with single malt scotch. Blended is not kosher but single malts are ok. . . the things you learn....

You are also supposed to fill the cup past the edge (your cup overfloweth with blessings) and you have to drink at least half of it on your first gulp (drink deeply of what is good in life).

So walk in the door, say a prayer over washing the hands and then only humming aloud, no speaking, until you have broken bread and made kaddish. Down that double shot of single malt scotch and get some lukewarm roast chicken (the oven has been off since sundown) and a little babaganoush and start arguing Torah with whichever drunken 25-30 year old rabbis are still up. There's older guys too but I was always intrigued by how with Habad, pretty much every male over 25 is a rabbi. That may not be his actual job but they all have been to rabbinical school are could take over a synagogue if there was a need. Stagger home around 2 am and crawl over to the temple in the morning. Then back to the Habad house for more cold food (again, no cooking on the sabbath) and more discussion of the parsha.

Those were some orthodox, ultra-conservative ways I could get into. Not really down with the dress code though.