Sun Baguazhang

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby spring on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:58 am

Mr Babin


Show me, friend, where I said 'secrets' ?? Please................................. :)

Let me assure you there was no snide comment - listen again - Mr Cartmell spent a month with Madam Sun and now teaches Sun Bagua. He spent a few weeks in Shanxi and now teaches Shanxi Xingyiquan.

Not snide, just a fact.

Now that is clear, can we discuss the Sun Bagua system?!




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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:30 am

spring wrote:Hello D Glenn

Some of the practices I learn and do are first, Wash the Frame and Marrow, second breath work to absorb and project through five gates, third, work of dantiens, forth is Spiritual taoist/Buddhist exercise such as singing for the coiling dragon in the sky to come down , dream exercises, and various vows and recapitulations. In Beijing the inheritors of Sun's Bagua still keep this work but more or less won't to share it with anyone but disciples.

Spring

Hi Spring

Those practices aren`t specyfic for Sun`s Bagua
`cause
my knowledge of His Bagua is very limited
but
i train or /ed/ it. ;D

In addition i lerned them from sources not nessesery direct conected with MA scene.
So
Sun made mix of qigong tech., wchih was best for him and his system.

Maybe Sun school call them "advanced"
but
for me advanced is state of the mind, not the exercise per spe. /itself/:-*
my 0,02 eu.c.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby spring on Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:56 am

hello Wiesiek - Thats interesting, was your teacher in Taoist Loong Men by any chance ? We do not know if Sun learned these from outside his study with Cheng, most likely as no Cheng schools we have heard about emphasie the daogong, if they exist would like to hear from those.

I see these as advanced in terms of the training progression, building upoun the work done on the physical frame. Doing them before base is established can cause problems in the mind and body.

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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby JAB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:15 am

Who invited this *%[email protected]! to the party ::) ?
Spring you are more than welcome to Tim's open mat on Saturdays, or my place anytime to show us the depth of Bagua in your bones, and your washing of the marrow & brain fu!
14 posts into your life and you are the expert! One of many reasons I rarely post on this forum anymore, thanks for the reminder.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby spring on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:26 am

Jake, I suspect your base was not established......... :D

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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:36 am

spring wrote:Hello D Glenn

Yes I agree all your points, its mainly in the Posture by Posture Circling Form we hold the hand lower, fingers do incline upwards to make energetic connection with upper hand. In the eight attacking hands speed is critical, as is timing. In many of these drills, and many of the basics, the hand by abdomen is replaced by hands continuously weaving, mainly from elbow piercing through as you stated. My curiosity was more about why our branch circles with lower hand, Master He Shen Ting did it this way but maybe he changed it for a reason. It does to me feel very open and easy for the Qi to spread.

Tao Gong (Daogong) is the advanced practices connected with the creative stage of circling, I guess all the older martial arts include some kind of mental/spiritual works such as this although now it may be less common. Some of the practices I learn and do are first, Wash the Frame and Marrow, second breath work to absorb and project through five gates, third, work of dantiens, forth is Spiritual taoist/Buddhist exercise such as singing for the coiling dragon in the sky to come down , dream exercises, and various vows and recapitulations. In Beijing the inheritors of Sun's Bagua still keep this work but more or less won't to share it with anyone but disciples.

Spring



Thanks, I understand. Here's an idea: On the hand posture I believe in Sun style and the songs you have/use the 8 attack methods: tui,tuo, dai, ling, ban, kou, pi, and jin. Each attack has a posture and turning can/is done with the different postures. Ban/moving is a commonly seen posture- can't think of the chinese name but it is with both the wrists touching and palms open. The hardest jin to get and manifest is IMO the Pi/chopping, the posture looks like the guard posture only the hand is lower, the jin needs to get to the heel of the palm and emphasis is more intent to get the flow of qi to the heel of that inside palm. Pi/chop goes from fingers pointing forward to wrist dropping, fingers pulling back, chop through the heel of palm. Just an idea since it is the hardest jin to get and is understandable that it's good practice to 'turn' and spend more time in it's posture.

On the daogong you should compare your practice to Yin Fu's qigong methods. Off the top of my head we have the lohan patting which is the precursor to iron body and the bone marrow practices, 8 healing sounds, opening the energy gates- then dantians, sitting standing lying down exercises, etc.

***

Isn't 'getting it in the bones' already a metaphor. Do we need another metaphor to explain that metaphor.

I've heard it as something like getting the 'bagua body'. It takes roughly 3 years of any style to get it ingrained in the body. It is funny when people forget that they have the first martial art they practiced 'ingrained' in their body and it is not nor should it be difficult for them to 'pick up' techniques from other styles, discard the techniques that don't suit there own body, and become quite proficient at those borrowed techniques. There is a difference though between style X's body doing bagua techniques and bagua body doing bagua techniques.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Felipe Bidó on Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:44 am

mixjourneyman wrote:Whats the word I'm looking for?

Oh yeah, condescending. ::)


Hmmm...
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby I-mon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:05 am

spring your training sounds very interesting, singing for the coiling dragon to come down from the sky and dream practices as part of a bagua lineage? i think that sounds cool. seems like old dr. painter from the jiulong baguazhang school likes to use some similar methods.

a few people around here basically are not interested in training methods or even goals which differ from their own, and they are usually pretty vocal.

by all accounts tim cartmell trained for many years with some very good teachers, and is a perfect candidate for someone with bagua in their bones, so it's not surprising that he could grasp and effectively teach many fundamental aspects of sun bagua after only a short time training with another excellent teacher.

that there are other aspects which he does not teach and/or was never shown should also be no surprise.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Fubo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:22 am

Spring,

Doing you have any videos of you or your teacher practicing Sun BGZ on youtube? Please share if you do.

Cheers.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Michael Babin on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:29 am

Mr. Spring
Tim, as far as I have heard and read, makes no attempt to hide the length of time he spent with his Sun-style teachers in China. I found it "snide" that you felt you had to insert it into one of your earlier messages as a subtle way of insinuating that he couldn't have had "the secrets".

By the way, I have heard a variety of stories about the length of time that Sun Lutang spent formally studying the Hao-style of taijiquan. Should we assume that he didn't have secrets of that style if he only spent months of informal study as well?

Any amount of studying solo forms and training methods brings only the shell of a system in combative term; similarly, training only with those who do the same style you are learning only takes you a little farther in combative terms. The real experts are the few martial professionals like Tim who bother to cross-train seriously and investigate what they learn rather than being content to maintain a museum of solo forms and training methods.

And, yes, there is more to bagua [or any internal system] than fighting but it is also easy to fool yourself into dismissing teachers like Tim because they didn't spend many years with a famous teacher or because they actually bother to fight enough to learn what works well in a ring or on a matt or on the street as opposed to in a fantasy world of old masters and heroes.

My last word on this ... I'm too old to get excited. [at least that's what the wife tells me every Saturday night]
Website & Martial Blog http://www.mbtaiji.net
Yang & Sun Taiji and Bagua Solo Form Samples on Vimeo https://vimeo.com/michaelbabin
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Josealb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:33 am

Hi Spring,

Welcome to the forum. I just wanna point out one thing. You said that its a fact that Tim spent a couple of months here, and a couple there, etc, and teaches what he learned. Even though that may be a fact, the thing is that you also said..

That one having Bagua in the Bones should always, in the heat of real combat and in the stress of daily lifes, response in such a way that the principles of Baguazhang - dynamic non-resistance, ability to vanish physically and energetically, ability to spontaneously manifest a myriad of changes which are in complete harmony with the incoming forces and pressures - are always evident.


... and this would be describing Tim on a bad day, which is also a fact. If your interested, you should really look into that.
Man carcass in alley this morning...
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby JAB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:37 am

As I stated Spring, feel free to stop by anytime to establish my base! I have no time for people like you, and frankly it is your attitude and mentality that have turned me off to the CMA community. (@)
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Dmitri on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:43 am

"ability to vanish physically" -- I'd like to have that ability, sounds so neat! :P
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby mixjourneyman on Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:43 am

Felipe Bidó wrote:
mixjourneyman wrote:Whats the word I'm looking for?

Oh yeah, condescending. ::)


Hmmm...



Did anyone else feel the ground shake a little just now?
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Fubo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:01 am

Josealb wrote:Hi Spring,

Welcome to the forum. I just wanna point out one thing. You said that its a fact that Tim spent a couple of months here, and a couple there, etc, and teaches what he learned. Even though that may be a fact, the thing is that you also said..

That one having Bagua in the Bones should always, in the heat of real combat and in the stress of daily lifes, response in such a way that the principles of Baguazhang - dynamic non-resistance, ability to vanish physically and energetically, ability to spontaneously manifest a myriad of changes which are in complete harmony with the incoming forces and pressures - are always evident.


... and this would be describing Tim on a bad day, which is also a fact. If your interested, you should really look into that.


I 2nd that.

I have never met Tim Cartmell, but only have had interations with him on his message board, and seen his videos and read his books - and I would have no problem saying that he embodies everything in "that" quote. When it comes to listening to someone about "traditional" IMAs and martial arts in general, he is one of the few people I even bother to look to now adays as a source for deep information. Even in the world of "internet Chinese martial arts" he is one of the few that openly shares valueble information without hiding behind the guise of esoteric poems and criptic language that lead to little informative material.

A lot of so called "masters" talk about how MAs develop the persons character, yet feel the need to talk down about other's teachers/systems/length of time studying etc... Tim Cartmell (from the little I've interacted with him)is one of the few that seem to be the embodiment of a highly developed character.
Last edited by Fubo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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