the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Wow! This thread has real potential guys. Keep up the good work.

BJF - nicks a beer from Shawn's cooler.

EDIT - where's Doc Stier when you need him....

Yo, who got da beers!?

Spring,

Nice to have you here. I don't practice Sun style but I would like to hear whatever you can share on it's training methods, from basics to advance. Also what exactly is 'taogong'?


I won't speculate on why someone would change the fu/supporting hand's position but in the songs it states why the position of the back hand is where it is,hand being under the front elbow, elbow in front of solarplexus. Bagua is known for the 'x'/cross hand shape. The back hand under the elbow is the 't'-shape, when the hands 'change' the 'x'-shape is formed. Bagua is/was known as a style having 'fast hands' which comes from the fu shou only having to move the length of the front hands forearm essentially.

Excerpt from Shi Jidongs 36:

穿掌手贴肘下出 In the penetrating palm the hand goes out from below the elbow.

手取十字利化功 Using the hands in the cross-shape or figure ten '十' to take advantage its quick ability to change is having 'gong'.



.

Tim needs me defending him about as much as the Pope needs Heidi Fleiss... but, having seen him in action at a workshop, I will vouch that few that I have seen live or on video do the Sun-style taiji solo form with as much authority, skill and intent as he does. He's also a great teacher who can do the applications and the methods not just talk about doing them ... which makes him rarer still.

We won't even talk about all his other accomplishments as a cross-training martial artist, translator, competitor and writer... so it's annoying to see people posting snide comments about how he only spent a limited time with Madame Sun and wasn't shown "secrets".

In my own 30+ years of taiji and martial arts training, I have seen too many examples of practitioners and teachers who spent too much time talking about "secrets" and not enough time getting knocked down or sweaty. Solo forms, no matter how intricate or arcane, don't automatically bring mastery... they reflect it in those with real combative experience and aptitude.

And, no, I'm not his student and haven't seen him in several years.

S- cracks another beer

im with you S.

Mmmm ok I will start another thread for guard posture differences soon as this one seems to have changed course.

Re. Mr. Cartmell, whatever his claims as to Sun Bagua and Shanxi Xingyi my guess he is he presenting the outer shell of an ancient tree, thats why it can be 'used' in two weeks. Had no idea who this man was and he may well be a good fighter, from what I can gather he did years of Neijia arts then moved to sports jujitsu. Ok......

Make of all this what you will, have seen many people over the years who did a little of something with a great teacher then claimed to have the system. Checking out with other sources in Shanxi today I find this man visited there a couple of times for a few weeks and now teaches 'Shanxi Xingyi' ! What to do.....?




Friends, someone may be famous, a good dojo fighter, sports fighter, or even leitai fighter.....this may be a world away from really having a system such as Bagua deep in your bones. I guess in the modern market place its just all a product anyway. Thank God we have been training away from all that for all these years!

I just received a message from board member , similar to my friend's message to me earlier today
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir, I am a friend of XXXXXXXXXX. He spent time with Madame Sun. He however does not claim to be a lineage holder. He knows alot aout Sun's methods. Anyway, I concur with you. I was told that Tim probably was only around Madame Sun for less than a month. XXXXX as well knows of Tim as he was friends with Marcus Brinkman and Bill Tucker (tudi of Luo Dexiu). XXXXX was around Madame Sun in the 1980's. I believe he as well trained with General He in Taiwan as well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the point of having bagua in the bones? What is that, exactly? Does that make you a better fighter? Healthier? Immortal? A snob?

BTW, how long did Sun Lu Tang study taijiquan before he created his own form? Did his previous experiences speed up his learning? Did people talk $hit about Sun in his day?

Hello D Glenn

Yes I agree all your points, its mainly in the Posture by Posture Circling Form we hold the hand lower, fingers do incline upwards to make energetic connection with upper hand. In the eight attacking hands speed is critical, as is timing. In many of these drills, and many of the basics, the hand by abdomen is replaced by hands continuously weaving, mainly from elbow piercing through as you stated. My curiosity was more about why our branch circles with lower hand, Master He Shen Ting did it this way but maybe he changed it for a reason. It does to me feel very open and easy for the Qi to spread.

Tao Gong (Daogong) is the advanced practices connected with the creative stage of circling, I guess all the older martial arts include some kind of mental/spiritual works such as this although now it may be less common. Some of the practices I learn and do are first, Wash the Frame and Marrow, second breath work to absorb and project through five gates, third, work of dantiens, forth is Spiritual taoist/Buddhist exercise such as singing for the coiling dragon in the sky to come down , dream exercises, and various vows and recapitulations. In Beijing the inheritors of Sun's Bagua still keep this work but more or less won't to share it with anyone but disciples.

Spring

Well, having Bagua in the bones, or better yet the marrow, does allow you to pass on the roots of the art and not only the fruit, so each new generation keeps a solid and fluid skill not degenerates.

Rather than be upset about the facts, face the facts. That teacher learned Sun bagua for a month and now teaches it. Great! If you want to put your head in a dark place and ignore it, go ahead.

There is too much lack of integrity in teachers in the West, I met another man in England called Marnix who is disciple of Wang Shu Chin, he was telling us how the most famous western teacher of Bagua always talks in his books about being a student of Wang..........and he in fact spent only two weeks with Wang and got thrown out for launching sneak attack on the old master. But now in his books he makes it seem he studied long time.

A common and sad theme in the Bagua-as-merchandise world.




Spring

Rather than make assumptions about whether or not I am upset, answer the question. At least explain what having bagua in the bones means. If you cannot explain it without overly relying on metaphor, perhaps you are in no position to talk about solid and fluid skill being passed on, eh?

Ah, good thing there is no lack of integrity in the East. Oh wait, there is. People are people.

Mr. Kreese , metaphor is often the only way to convey a truth when the medium is pixels on a screen. What would you have me describe ??-

That one having Bagua in the Bones should always, in the heat of real combat and in the stress of daily lifes, response in such a way that the principles of Baguazhang - dynamic non-resistance, ability to vanish physically and energetically, ability to spontaneously manifest a myriad of changes which are in complete harmony with the incoming forces and pressures - are always evident.

Or shall we ask that such a man will be able to manifest the same ability as the Chinese dragon, swirling coiling diving and soaring through the endless sky ? Being as the fluidity of a flowing river, raging then gentle, swirling around the rocks in a non-stop powerful manner ?


Spring

Whats the word I'm looking for?

Oh yeah, condescending.