Sun Baguazhang

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:47 am

Interesting - I see now what "gates" means, at least for the first 3 (I guess the 4 gates for the luohan patting are not the same... are they called 關 as well?)

Is this qigong being taught by He Jinbao? Would be interesting to learn it for comparison...
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby nianfong on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:23 am

drilling basics does not a fighter make. fighting makes a fighter. what is stopping you from fighting while you drill basics?
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:25 pm

edededed wrote:Interesting - I see now what "gates" means, at least for the first 3 (I guess the 4 gates for the luohan patting are not the same... are they called 關 as well?)

Is this qigong being taught by He Jinbao? Would be interesting to learn it for comparison...


Took a bit but found it: no it's different, it's the 4 gates/doors- si men.
He knows it but doesn't teach it. Actually they have them on DVD of xie doing it and the books which they're going to be re-printing soon. Interesting stuff- adds a lot of depth to practices like stretching and warm-up that people might normally be doing, ziran based movements if you will, like the patting comes from a mother patting her child's back. The sitting stuff is really yoga-like.


.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:45 pm

Simen - ah, interesting, thanks. (Finally beginning to understand all the English spacy lingo regarding Chinese meditative practices now... ;) Wondered what "gates" were talking about for a looong time.)

Hmm - does the DVD and/or books have the whole system in them? Or if He Jinbao is not teaching it, are there other opportunities to learn the system?
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Plante on Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:05 am

Probably with Andrew Nugent-Head in China, he seems to be into the "health" part of Xie's stuff.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:27 pm

Thanks - yeah, that's what I hear. :)
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:19 pm

Damn! :-\ I could have sworn that this thread was supposed to be about Sun Style Pa-Kua.... ???

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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Finny on Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:54 am

Any comment on Spring's assertions Doc?

Have you heard of/do you practise these 'Taogong' that he says is the higher/highest level of Sun style?
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:39 pm

There is no doubt that Master Sun attributed a great part of his incredible personal 'internal skills' or 'chi dynamics' abilities to Taoist Meditation practices, but there remains some question as to exactly what the specific methods that he employed actually were, and how these personal practices may have changed during his lifetime. However, it is known that he spent extended periods of time on several occasions in the Wu-Tang Mountain district in search of deeper insights and a more profound understanding of Taoist Philosophy, I-Ching, Taoist Meditation Methods, and Wu-Tang Shan Chi-Kung Practices.

Master Sun clearly valued a process of simplification in the formation of his own Hsing-Yi Chuan, Pa-Kua Chuan, and Tai-Chi Chuan styles, based on the belief that strength is found in simplicity rather than complexity. Logic would suggest, therefore, that a preference for simplicity was also valued in his meditation and chi-kung practices. As such, I tend to believe that any mental or spiritual practices and any physical training program attributed to his personal regimen and teaching is more likely to effectively cut through the vague philosophical concepts and complex physical aspects normally attached to such training in order to distill a workable and easily duplicated set of practices which are uniquely powerful in affect, yet notably simple in content. ;)

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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby jafc on Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:59 am

gentlemen,

I started reading this thread hoping to understand a bit more about Sun Bagua - not having seen it. Obviously, the discussion deteriorated & people got upset. I have never met Tim Cartmell but, by everyone's account, his skill is obvious & does not require defending. In the absence of a defense, why not attack?

Spring,

Perhaps, I missed you introducing yourself. You gave a brief description of your background.

Yes its a (kind of) translation of my Chinese name, like water gushing up, and I am called this by my friends in England. Ok my teacher was Mike Gillespie, a 6th Generation disciple of He Shen Ting who lived the latter part of his life in Taiwan. I think he was in America a couple of times by invitation , but his only disciple from outside ROC was Mike Gillespie who spent eight years with him. I dont think many would have known Mike as he was totally against teaching his stuff publicly, but he had solid and fluid Bagua skill. There were only a few of us in the training in different parts of the country as he travelled all over a lot, few years ago he got involved with some kind of intelligence work due to his linguistic skills (when I knew him he spoke seven languages) and last we heard he died in Asia. So, I keep circling............


You said Mike Gillespie spent the later years of his life in Taiwan - How many?
He spent eight years studying under He Shen Ting - continuously or intermittently while his real job allowed?
You mentioned yourself & students in England - I cant find a website - why is that? Are there prohibitions against teaching publicly? If so, why have you violated them?
With regard to your training - how many years did you study with him? Since he "travelled all over a lot", how often did you actually learn from him? (& since Tim is a short-timer- how are you different)
Since your teachers mysterious disappearence, what have you been doing? who are you learning from? Are you teaching?
Lastly, there are a bunch of guys on this board with loads of experience - if you are going to be so holy - than - thou about your skill, perhaps a video would cement your position in the halls of great skillful practitioners.
cheers,
JC
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby spring on Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:41 am

Greetings Jafc

A good attack indeed!

Actually it is not so mysterious, Mike lived with me for slightly over two years in Cardiff. He was very strict about training, said it had to be done twice a day for three hours each time to maintain skill, and although a beginner when we met I had to do that. I could not walk properly for months. He trained with me, and seeing how good he was pushed me on. I have yet to see anyone since that loved the circle like that man, his circle was so clean, he said the form was evolving over the years but the principle was constant. He went away for a couple of years and left me to train alone, and when I met him again we spent a great few months working new things.

When I got to meet Master He in Taiwan he told me that Mike had been with him eight years night and day and after travelled as part of a Buddhist order around Asia, his job was safe guarding in transit sacred relics and scriptures from Korea, Taiwan, China and so on. I also met other famous teachers there who spoke highly of him, one was the well known late Shao Pung who told me he was Mikes blood brother, and when he brought some monks from Taiwan to stay with us in my place they expressed delight at his fluency in classical Chinese and pali (Buddhist scripture language).

The thing is that he had no interest in selling his art, belts, competitions, he just lived and breathed the art and taught a few that he said appreciated the essence. He told me to teach if I loved someone enough, because it took a long time and effort. Its true! When I think of how much time he spent with me, and I heard it was the same for the other students in London. I dont know most of them, after he left two became students of GM Xie Pei Chi (they now leead the group), one went to train in Japan with Master Su Dongchen, one became a bodyguard and the other moved to Taiwan to train. I heard there was a couple of others but not sure who.

There is no secrecy, I do practice with a little group in a quiet park, far away from the commercial martial arts world. Still keep the discipline my teacher gave me, and at the moment Buddhist meditation and Pali study takes my other time. I am lucky to have private means to support me.

The Sun Bagua my teacher passsed to me is a lifetime study, I met others but do not feel the need for another teacher. As for film , well I saw a few clips floating around years ago, done in China and one where Mike performed at some kind of Taichi festival in UK, thats probably still out there. I dont have any of me, sorry. What I will always keep is a memory of the last day I spent with Mike, he waved goodbye and then turned back and said 'Now you have it, dont let it die!'

And that was the last I saw of him.
I heard he passed away some time after that. But you know - I wont let it die.

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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby edededed on Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:19 pm

Seems like he "had the good stuff," so to speak - sorry to hear that he passed away so early.
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Miro on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:35 am

I discovered this topic only now. It is dead for several months already but if anyone involved here is still interested, I practiced with He Shunding for the last five years of his teaching (until he stopped teaching), both his Sun style bagua and xingyi. I would like to clarify several points of this discussion:

1. Mike Gillespie was not a disciple of He Shunding. Once I introduced a Westerner to him, who was originally student of Mike Gillespie. That Westerner told He Shunding, that he studied with his disciple Mike - and He Shunding immediately corrected him: "He (Mike Gillespie) was not my disciple." Although I practiced with He Shunding for five years, I do not know personally any disciple of his and I am not sure if he ever took any disciples (but he taught hundreds students). Even his most senior student (surname Shi, I do not remember his given name now) who taught his style was not his official disciple. That Westerner also told me that Mike supposedly lived and learned from He Shunding in some temple in the mountains. That is not truth, He Shunding never lived and taught in any temple...
2. Also, Spring said that Mike´s "job was safe guarding in transit sacred relics and scriptures from Korea, Taiwan, China and so on". I was Buddhist monk in Taiwan for 16 years and I can tell you that this statement is utterly ridiculous. First, there were no religious contacts between Taiwan and China at that time and Taiwanese monks could apply for Mainland visa only with photo in civil dress, not in monk dress (once I did not got Mainland visa because I had monk´s photo in my passport too). Second, there was almost no transit of any relics and if, that certainly would not need to have special guards - that is just fairy tales for Westerners...
3. The sentence that he spent with He eight years day and night is not true. He Shunding was busy man, he taught at the Chinese Culture University, he was active in Taiwan MA Association, he had family, other things, he could not give to any of his students "day and night" training, and certainly not for 8 years! Mike G. certainly did not study with him at that University, for example. I never heard He Shunding to talk about Mike except on that one occassion with that particular Westerner.
4. I never heard He Shunding to talk about any Taogong system as highest level of Sun style, neither him, nor any other students of his. I dare to say he never used these "highest level" words, I knew him well and I know he would not use them. I can even give you He Shunding´s phone mumber, you can call him and ask him, I can guarantee he did not say that.

Miro
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:47 am

Miro wrote:I discovered this topic only now. It is dead for several months already but if anyone involved here is still interested, I practiced with He Shunding for the last five years of his teaching (until he stopped teaching), both his Sun style bagua and xingyi. I would like to clarify several points of this discussion:

1. Mike Gillespie was not a disciple of He Shunding. Once I introduced a Westerner to him, who was originally student of Mike Gillespie. That Westerner told He Shunding, that he studied with his disciple Mike - and He Shunding immediately corrected him: "He (Mike Gillespie) was not my disciple." Although I practiced with He Shunding for five years, I do not know personally any disciple of his and I am not sure if he ever took any disciples (but he taught hundreds students). Even his most senior student (surname Shi, I do not remember his given name now) who taught his style was not his official disciple. That Westerner also told me that Mike supposedly lived and learned from He Shunding in some temple in the mountains. That is not truth, He Shunding never lived and taught in any temple...
2. Also, Spring said that Mike´s "job was safe guarding in transit sacred relics and scriptures from Korea, Taiwan, China and so on". I was Buddhist monk in Taiwan for 16 years and I can tell you that this statement is utterly ridiculous. First, there were no religious contacts between Taiwan and China at that time and Taiwanese monks could apply for Mainland visa only with photo in civil dress, not in monk dress (once I did not got Mainland visa because I had monk´s photo in my passport too). Second, there was almost no transit of any relics and if, that certainly would not need to have special guards - that is just fairy tales for Westerners...
3. The sentence that he spent with He eight years day and night is not true. He Shunding was busy man, he taught at the Chinese Culture University, he was active in Taiwan MA Association, he had family, other things, he could not give to any of his students "day and night" training, and certainly not for 8 years! Mike G. certainly did not study with him at that University, for example. I never heard He Shunding to talk about Mike except on that one occassion with that particular Westerner.
4. I never heard He Shunding to talk about any Taogong system as highest level of Sun style, neither him, nor any other students of his. I dare to say he never used these "highest level" words, I knew him well and I know he would not use them. I can even give you He Shunding´s phone mumber, you can call him and ask him, I can guarantee he did not say that.

Miro



Bro, so in a nutshell this Spring character is uninformed or just plainly full of shit?

JB
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Re: Sun Baguazhang

Postby Abi Moriya on Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:06 am

Hi All
Regarding Mike Gillespie: I am writing some memories from my studies in Taiwan during the 80's, including my training with Hong Yixiang, and so looked for Mike at the net. A short while after I started training with teacher Hong Yixiang at the Tang Shou Dao school, begining of 1987, I met Mike Gillespie at the Taipei hostel. To my suprise he told me he was searching for Hong Yixiang for months, but could not locate him, and that he holds a reccomadation letter to teacher Hong. To make a long story short - He joined the class, but after about 2-3 month, an argument broke out between Mike and the Hong family, and he was asked not to show up any more.
since the number of foriegners in Taipei was not that high at the time, I kept seeing him from time to time. He told me with great exitement he was learning Bagua Zhang with He Shunding at the Cultural University. I have no idea for how long he learned there. He was showing me some of the things he learned, but otherwhile it was very difficult to tell what was true or was made up. I remember at some stage he married a Taiwanese girl, and eventually (I am almost sure, but around the begining of the 90's) went back to England with her. My friend and fellow martial artist Ben Hazan met him twice in England, and was rather impressed with his skill. He was the one who told me about Mike's dissaperance. I also heard he preformed once in a martial arts event in London. Regarding the stories about him acting as a "special agent" or any other title, I do not really know, but at best it sounds very odd, though fits nicely to his colourful stories.
If he is indeed dead - may he rest in peace.
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