Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

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Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Andy_S on Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:55 pm

Well, this is what we have all been waiting for, and I am not making this up!

Bagua master (?) versus rough-looking little chap in a Shanghai Park.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/cmsoon#p/u/13/K0BdwbA6h9I[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/user/cmsoon#p/u/13/K0BdwbA6h9I

I predict discussion will take the following directions:
(1) Gee, that guy ain't no Bagua master
(2) Gee, this just shows that IMA masters have not real fight experience. Sad
(3) Gee, it looks just like any old brawl...
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:30 pm

Ever seen a dog fight? The one dissapointment was it seemed the Bagua Master was trying to leave room to save face by not applying a wholehearted effort, using only one hand, kind of half of Bagua :-\
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Strange on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:38 pm

falling on your own step is not so good
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby somatai on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:39 pm

fighting either happens or not, hard to force it....but yeah, that was not impressive, all the walking about, useful i guess, but more about creating space so they cant attack and you can run, which is useful ,but he really had no clue as to how to go about it
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Andy_S on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:46 pm

SNIP
not applying a wholehearted effort
SNIP

Well, at the end he got into it, but one could legitimately say that was when it descended into a brawl (and that is when it was broken up). I didn't see any manifestation of skill there.

SNIP
he really had no clue as to how to go about it
SNIP

Yep, that was my reaction. The most effective thing he did was lose his temper (and any pretense of Bagua) at the end and start flailing wildly.

The thing is, his group is NOT bad at Bagua (look at the other clips). They do forms, drills, etc, pretty well. Just no (or very little) fight experience.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:47 pm

I don't think the other clips in the channel are performed by the same teacher or his students, but a collection of Bagua clips from various sources.

As a general rule of thumb, when a Bagua guy attempts to sqaure off with an opponent by circle walking, it is usually a prelude to diaster. Bagua is a combination of circling and "entering," but many seem to leave out the latter in their training.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby beegs on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:04 pm

the state of gong fu, not good

my opinion

up to us to all of us praticoners to "fix" this problem in our own tiny way each of us,

how-
just train as hard as we can and be realistic in what we do, these art usefulnness is dying if left in the hands of these "masters"
and
stop being impressed by people power in forms and structure because it doesnt mean much unless the whole bunch of other pieces are their as well.

just my opinion, this is akin to watching baseball players playing like charlie brown
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby wushutiger on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:30 pm

The problem was emotions....not knowing how to handle them and being taken over by the rush of emotions during the conflict. The solution, expose yourself to these emotions more regularly so you can clearly think and use your skills during those times.....
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:51 pm

Sadly, my guess is that we might all be surprised at just how similar the result would be for a lot of so-called "masters" of internal martial arts, even those we really respect for various authentic, demonstrable skills. At the biggest picture level, I think practitioners at every level of CMA are going to have to go through another combative rebirth of their arts such as occurred with the southern Chinese arts that encountered Indonesian and Filipino arts many years ago. They've rested on their laurels for far too long, with too many generations of practitioners and teachers who lack significant direct experience with real combat. It's become flower fist, brocade leg all over again.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby mrtoes on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:36 am

That was awful. At least they ended up actually having a fight, albeit a brief one.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Andy_S on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:12 am

SNIP
I don't think the other clips in the channel are performed by the same teacher or his students, but a collection of Bagua clips from various sources.
SNIP

Not all, but some of them are, you can tell by the faces of the guys performing.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Andy_S on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:18 am

SNIP
Sadly, my guess is that we might all be surprised at just how similar the result would be for a lot of so-called "masters" of internal martial arts, even those we really respect
SNIP

If you are a master who has never had a fight since elementary school, has never taken part in contact sports, and who only ever spars (or, more likely, drills) with his students, I think it would be naive to expect otherwise. However much these people train MA, actual fighting against a man who does not do their style and is not their student is quite simply outside their experience.

There are some persons in IMA - a few - who, OTOH, have and continue to seek this experience. Su Dong-chen and Luo De-xiu from Hong's lineage went through kuoshu, and so learned contact fighting. Chen Zi-qiang will grapple anyone who steps into his hall, and if you want to punch or kick, he will say, "Fine - go ahead."

But these kinds are a minority.
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby bailewen on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:44 am

C.J.W. wrote:。。。As a general rule of thumb, when a Bagua guy attempts to sqaure off with an opponent by circle walking, it is usually a prelude to diaster.


Not always . . .



It's that "entering" thing you menitoned that always gets left out. Circling is great. It's just that most people don't have a fucking clue why they are circling. Their just...ehem..."going in circles". :P The circling is supposed to be predatory.

I think most people, even most bagua people with fight experience, don't have much of a clue how circling relates to fighting so they come up with a bunch of tertiary ex-post-facto explanations for the exercise. The one's with no fighting experience just do it as a sort of ritual dance. :)
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby Steve Rowe on Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:10 am

I think they were both drunk....
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Re: Shanghai Imperial Bagua Master Fa Ma-gua vs Brawler!

Postby shock and awe on Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:17 am

very little fighting in this very little power and very little bagua
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