kenneth fish wrote:The mechanics are the same - and frankly, LHBF's mechanics are not as unique as most LHBF people make them out to be
Definitely, the same physics and physiology should be common in the internal arts. Thats why I say that Liuhebafa doesnt become Liuhebafa until it reaches a very high stage, at which the part that is unique is ready to emerge and take the practitioner in a distinct direction. That could be said for Taiji or the others come to think of it!
kenneth fish wrote:Duliu Tongbei does not resemble what most people think of as Tongbei - it is not an "ape system". The Tongbei still refers to power transmitted through the back and into the limbs (which is part of what I was talking about in terms of mechanics).
There are a few branches of Tongbei yes, and the meaning "through the back" refers to the spinal power used, which from my experience is or should be what is or should be utilized in Liuhebafa. Duliu Tongbei is also based on the 24 movements, which comprises the other Tongbei systems too. Many branches of Tongbei themselves say that their founder is Chen Xi Yi, though not agreed on unanimously.
kenneth fish wrote:As for Wu having a teacher for each of the separate systems - Wu said as much in his writings. When I get back to the States I will translate and post what Wu had to say about Lu Hong Ba Shi and his various teachers.
I dont know about the "separate systems" part, but Wu spoke of his 4 teachers yes, 3 he said himself were of the
Huayue Xiyi Men clan practicing Liuhebafa, and 1 was his teacher Song Qing Wen of Luhong Bashi of which he passed down the names of 8 successive generations and information about the founder Lu Hong Wen. Of the 3 Liuhebafa people Wu stated that they were "of the same clan", but didnt speak at all of any similarities/differences in what they taught him. It was only recent generations who started saying that Wu learned 3 versions of Liuhebafa and taught it 3 ways, but that turned out to be only speculation that resulted from the difference in interpretations found within Wu's students, and simply wasnt the case as far as anybody can say. Prior to them though there were some mention of names such as “Yuan Tong
Ba Fa 元通八法” of Master Yuan Rong, and "
Xin Yi Liu He Yi Bing 心意六合醫病" of Yang Jing Qun who as we understood was also responsible for "San Pan Shi Er Shi".
kenneth fish wrote:The LiuHe Quan had a very long form that, properly practiced, takes about an hour to run through. There were a lot of succesions of movements that looked like they had been taken from both parts of what you are calling the Zuji Quan.
I wouldnt doubt that, but havent others also said that Liuhebafa contains the 13 ways of Taiji, 8 palm changes of Bagua, and the 5 elements of Xingyi! Actually if you really look at it you can find just about anything in Liuhebafa, its a vast wealth of kung fu wrapped up in one package.
kenneth fish wrote:Wu also had a teacher who only taught San Pan Shi Er Shi.
If I could re-word that: Wu only had one teacher (
of the 3 Liuhebafa teachers) who taught San Pan Shi Er Shi. That was Yan Guo Xing 閻國興.
kenneth fish wrote:"Yes, we know about Wu Yihui and LHBF. LHBF was developed by Wu Yihui and his teachers. It was developed from these two systems, and other things that Wu Yihui learned (Chinese: 六合八法 这个拳 是 由 六合拳和八法拳 这两个拳法变化出来的)
We don't know where the whole Daoist myth came from - its a myth. This was developed here (meaning rural Hebei), and Wu Yihui was the person who developed and spread it."
I wouldnt doubt that Liuhebafa came from Liuhe Quan and Bafa Quan, it makes sense and the elements are there, but at the same time Im not totally convinced of it either. Wu was a highly educated man who was both a scholar and a soldier. As I said before I somewhat feel that this conflicts with his character as we know it, founding a style while at the same time claiming a fabricated history to it. If it was his teachers though it may make more sense, as they seemed to be close in proximity and relation to eachother. The taoist legend is no need to even discuss, but Wu's role seems to have many blanks within that raise discussion.
Its also common in other styles as many have already seen for one lesser spread branch to claim authenticity over the mainstream branch, of which half the cases are fabricated and the other half are actually legitimate!
There is information though on the generations before Wu, both from him and from adjacent sources. Some is known about Song Yuan Tong (successor of Li Dong Feng) who developed and introduced the Yu Chuan Jian to the system, Wang De Wei (successor of Yuan Rong) who first started the name "water boxing" and probably developed/discovered the concept, Yang Jing Qun (successor of Pan Zhi Huo) who is believed to have created/extracted the San Pan Shi Er Shi as well as certain other health related concepts, not to mention Wu's second teacher Chen Guang Di (successor of Li Jing Ran, Da Yuan, and Li Chan) of which we know a great deal of. So it isnt a total blank prior to Wu, but I would agree that it is vague. There have been other "claims" though of Liuhebafa lineages that didnt come through Wu...
I dont mean to refute any of what is present, just the contrary, Im waiting to hear more. This is an interesting discussion and theres alot to learn if we all be opened and objective!