Doing a lot of pondering about the development of XY, from X

[salcanzonieri]

Doing a lot of pondering about the development of XY, from Xinyi Liue to Dai Family XY to Shanxi and Hebei Xingyi Quan (long post, please bear with me), I have questions that are in bold, and this text is following a line of logic, and most of this material is from notes that are expanded upon in my forthcoming book, so hence if it looks like it was written very formally:

Ji Jike's, aka Ji Longfeng, development of the martial art is described in the Ji Clan Chronicles (Ji Shi Jiapu). We know about Ji Jike (Ji
Longfeng) being a martial artist and his quest to better his skills. So this takes us into two directions, somehow he perfected the art of Liuhe Qiang -
Six Harmony Spear play and then he developed a way to use the spear methods for empty hand methods. The Six Harmony Spear techniques were often
attributed to General Yue Fei's spear methods. BUT the spear techniques Yue Fei used were not the Liuhe Spear but were his own creation, which became
known as Yue Fei's Spear. Instead, the Liuhe Spear is a combination of six famous martial art families known for their spear skills: Yang, Gao, Sha,
Ma, Luo, and Liu. Together, these families of spear techniques form the Liuhe Spear or Six Combination Spear. Supposedly, Ji called his art Liuhe
Quan, Six Harmony Boxing. People called this Spear Fist play: Yi Quan, Intention Boxing, because the hand methods use the intention of the spear
methods. Also, he developed some Xing Quan - Shape Boxing, that were influenced by animal movements from Shaolin Temple.

These Liuhe Spear methods (which were divided into the Meihua - Plum Blossum methods and the Eight Mother Spear Methods) were used during the 1500's in the Ming Dynasty. Monk Zhang Chozhong (1522 - 1597) wrote about the Eight Mother Spear Methods in his book, The Shaolin Staff, Spear and Saber. Some of the Liuhe Meihua Spear techniques can be found in the Shaolin Plum Blossom Spear set. It is said in the Ji Clan records and in Shaolin's
records that he went to Shaolin temple and there was an exchange of martial arts material. Perhaps to check out the spear methods there?

Now Shaolin received a lot of their boxing methods from outside military experts. During the 1500s to 1600s of the Ming Dyanasty, from Shantung they received Mi Zhong Quan (Lost Track Boxing) and other martial arts (Tang Lang, Ba Fan Shou, Hua Quan, Cha Quan), from other areas they received Hong Quan (Shanxi and Shaanxi), Mei Hua Zhuang boxing (widely spread in the neighboring counties), and from local Henan (where Shaolin is located) they received Yue Jia Quan (General Yue Fei's FAMILY - his soldiers and generals) Duan Da (Close Range) boxing methods. As Ji later created a fist method from the spear, likewise Shaolin had previously created fist methods from the staff (Chang Quan and Hong Quan). During Ji's lifetime, besides their staff methods, Shaolin was famous for its Xing Quan. Shaolin had animal shaped boxing methods at that time that influenced Ji Jike, such as the Chicken & Rooster, Sparrowhawk, the Monkey, the Horse, the Dragon, Tiger, Eagle, and other shapes. This was called Xing Quan, Shape Boxing. In Shaolin the Xing Quan they practiced had a lot of its methods from Yue Jia Quan, which was also called Xing Quan as well. The hand movements and postures are based on various domestic and wild animals. So, the martial material that Ji Jike worked with at Shaolin was influenced by this Xing Quan. And, quite a few XY postures have the same movements and names as in various older Shaolin sets, such as “Sparrowhawk Drills Forest”, “Golden Chicken Stands on One Leg”, “White Crane Spreads its Wings”, and many more. This is especially true of the XY Ba Shi Quan set, which is always attributed to Yue Fei’s martial arts.

It is said (in the Ji Clan Chronicals?) that he also spent some time at the Wang Bao village, Qianzai (Taoist) Temple and then returned to Shaolin Temple (Buddhist). Ji learned the Six Harmony Spear techniques and he brought it, along with possible influences from Dong Cheng's Tong Bei (taken from the Qianzai Temple), to Shaolin. According to Ji family written records, after learning the Six Harmony Spear's shenfa at Qianzai temple, Ji practiced it to mastery. Setting off again for Shaolin temple, Ji took the second route, which was over the mountains and across the Yellow River to the Three Gorges. Passing the provincial seat of Henan, he arrived near Shaolin. It is recorded that Ji's horse lost its footing and fell into the valley below. Ji was able to scale the cliffs to safety after a few days effort. Arriving at Shaolin Si, Ji impressed them with his "Six Harmony Spear" skill, and the abbot there begged Ji to stay at the temple to teach (this event was recorded in the Ji Family Chronicles). What Ji had understood was how and why to use neigong whole body movement to make his martial arts more efficient and effective. Ji's martial art was very economical. Shaolin loved his spear method. In the Shaolin temple's archives, there is a spear manual titled, Teacher Ji's Spear Manual. Shi Yong Wen, originally from Shaolin, still has it in his care. (the infamous Dr. Stephen Dr. Yan has visited Shi Yong Wen in Kaifeng, Henan to authenticate this manual.) According to Yan, "the manual in question is exactly the same as the Xinyi Liuhe Chang manual in the author's possession. From this, we can see that Shaolin treated Ji respectfully and called him Ji Lao Shi (teacher, Ji). This story matches up with the story in the Ji Family Chronicles."

Ji applied the methods of this style of spear to the boxing forms he had learned at the Shaolin temple. The new style he created was later named
XinYi LiuHe Quan. Using the spear efficiently and effectively requires that the whole body must unite with the spear and move in an integrated manner,
causing the jing of the spear to be extremely solid and heavy. In the deflecting techniques the two hands need to twist (or "turning the yin and
yang") with the correct timing with the gross circular movement of the spear to generate a very strong "coiling" or "reeling" force from the lower
dantian area. Ji's Xinyi Quan placed heavy emphasis on neigong and single movement practice; its only form was the Si Da -'Four Strikes', which is
simply four movements linked together (the first is 'Eagle Pounces on Food', which is the same as Heng Quan - 'Horizontal fist'; the second is Dan Da -'Single Strike', which is the same as Tiao Ling - 'Upward Chin'; the third is An Jue, which is the same as Ying Zhou - 'Eagle Seizes'; and the fourth is Mei
Pi – ‘Eyebrow Chop', which is the same as Pi Shou - 'Splitting hand'.).

So, after Ji left Shaolin, thanks to this exchange of martial ideas, Shaolin developed 7 Star Boxing (which is rooster shape based), Xin Yi Quan, and Xin
Yi Lie Hu Quan, and more. Also, they developed some Qigong and martial strategy ideas that where written down in documents, similar to the various
theoretical documents that XY Quan developed. (Note: The Shaolin Xin Yi Ba was later taught to Shaolin by a student of Ji Jike named Li Shiming, discussed more later.) After leaving Shaolin, Ji Jike started having students (Some of Ji Jike's students continued to go to Shaolin to exchange material, which is documented there). Now all the controversy starts, as to WHO were Ji's direct students and who were their students? Another question is why is there a big difference between the XY practiced by the decendents of these people? It is commonly thought (but never proven) that Ma Xueli (from Luoyang, Henan) and Cao Jiwu (from Anhui and later Hebei) were his first two students. Ji was a Chinese Muslim, as was Ma and more than likely Cao (the Cao family in Hebei was famous for their Liuhe Quan, and they were Chinese Muslims as well).

We know that the art eventually was taught to Henan's Ma Xueli (about 1714-1790) of Muslim origin and to non-Muslim Li Chenhu. Ma's teacher is conventionally taught of as being Ji Longfeng. However, the traditions of the Ma family itself say only that he learned from a wandering master, a hermit who was called 'Henanfu Li'; "Henanfu" means "Luoyang". Note: Li Chenhu and Ma both had the same teacher, Li Shiming. Li Shiming is the true author of the famous "Ten Principles of Xinyi Liuhe" section of the Xinyi Liuhe Quan book in 1713. According to the famous Chinese martial art historian You Tang
Hao's "Pictorial Collection of China Martial Arts", Ji passed his knowledge to a hermit named Zheng (called Nan Shan Zheng Shi), and Zheng passed the
information to a hermit, Li Shiming of Henan (called 'Henan Fu' Li), and Li finally passed it to a Luoyang Muslim named Ma Xueli and to a non- Muslim Li
Chenhu. Li Shiming eventually brought this material to Shaolin. It was treasured by the Shaolin monks for generations. In addition, he also taught
the 'Secret 24 Character Formula'. Within this '24 Character Formula' is the sentence, "Tongbi is famous for its dodging; Xinyi is good at evasion".
After Li arrived at the Wangwushan area of Jiyuan, in his later years, he also wrote the Treatise on the Nine Essentials of Xinyiquan. This treatise,
in addition to being passed along to the Zhaobao Taiji practitioners and Chen Changxing of Chen Village, was also preserved by the Yuan family in
Jiyuan. In the early Republican era, Zheng Lianpu gave a copy to the martial arts coach at Peking University, Li Jianqiu (Li Cunyi's grand-disciple); in
1919, Li Jianqiu recorded it in his book The Art of Xingyiquan. You Tanghao said in his book, Pictorial Collection of Chinese Martial Arts: "The rest of
the masters learnt from Zheng (called Nan Shan Zheng Shi), who learnt from Ji (Long Feng). Although the martial art was not learnt under the best of
circumstances, the basic essence was understood and divided into ten principles to better teach students, thus no one master dared to say he
inherited from Ji Longfeng. From all resources and backdating, the history of Liuhe Quan should be thus: Ji passed it to Zheng (of Mt. Nan), who passed
it to Li Shiming, and it was Li who wrote the Ten Principles or Truths."

According to You Tanghao, "Li Shiming struck up a friendship with Shaolin's abbot around the years of the emperors' Yong Zheng (1723-1735) and Qian Long's (1735-1795) reigns. Li presented the abbot with a copy of the manual Ten Most Important Truths of Xinyi Liuhe, written by him in the 11th year of
Emperor Yong Zheng's reign." The '12 Moves of the Xinyi Liuhe' set was later passed to the Shaolin abbot by Li, which was taught only to high ranking
monks. Li's disciple, Ma Xueli, the founder of Luoyang Xinyi Quan, and grand disciple, Ma Sanyuan, also visited Shaolin temple. Today, the Ma family
Xinyi Ba set and the Shaolin Xinyi Ba still appear to share many features, names, postures, and movements, showing that they arose from a common
source. The material within Shaolin Xinyi Ba was developed from Rou Quan, Hong Quan, and Pao Quan and studying these three systems all of the Xinyi Ba
movements can be found within them.

Yang Jing Ming argues that the earliest roots of the ideas and methods used in the style first developed out of Shaolin and then during the Southern
Song Dynasty era was passed onto General Yue Fei. (Note: Shaolin since the 1600s has had written records of Shaolin Yue Fei Quan and Shaolin Yue Jia
Duanda Quan, which are still practiced in some areas of Henan). Yang and others say that generations later, Yue Fei's fighting ideas, in the form of
a manual, were passed on to Ji Longfeng. Many people believe that this idea is only a legend, that seeks to bestow honor to the style because of Yue's
cultural status as a Chinese war hero. Also, the anti-Manchurian sentiment after the fall of the Ming Dynasty harkened back to Yue Fei's battles
against the Jurchen, from which the Manchurians (who took over the Chinese empire after 1644 AD) had descended. But, other researchers have found many similarities between the postural movements of the 12 Animal Forms of Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan / Shanxi Xingyi Quan with those seen in the routines of Yue Jia Quan (the fighting style of Yue Fei's army and his descendents). Describing the Six Harmonies, Li Shiming wrote, "The heart harmonizes with
the intent, the qi with power, ligaments with bones, hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip, this is the Liuhe. Six basic forms, each form
with the ability to evolve into 12 forms, the 12 forms are still able to be returned back to each parent form." This idea is very similar to how Yue Jia Quan is practiced. Also, the foundational 'Ba Shi Quan - Eight Methods Boxing' routine of Xingyi Quan was said to have been developed from Yie Jia Quan, and it in fact its postural movements can be found with the postural movements contained within the well known Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou (Yue Family Eight Revolving Hands) set of eight routines, which is practiced also in the Hebei area.

(NOTE: Yue Jia Quan practices a Liuhe Quan set. Hebei Xingyi Quan also contains a Liuhe Quan set in its curriculum. The Cao family in the Hebei area was famous all over for their Liuhe Quan (6 Harmony Boxing). Hebei Liuhe Men contains many routines, and is divided into various sections of material, one of which is known as Yue Fei's methods. Perhaps this is why Cao Jiwu was attributed to XY since he was a known martial artist and perhaps the famous Preface to Dai Family XY was indeed a forgery made in Hebei? Also, in the Hebei area, one of Yue Fei's descendants moved there and taught 10 Routines of Yue Jia Quan, which also was famous in that area. MANY of the animal sets found in Xingyi Quan can be found within the postural movements of this Hebei Yue Jia Quan's routines, especially those of XY Rooster, Horse, Snake, Swallow, and so on.)

According to research by Jarek Szymanski, we can know how Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan developed from Ji Jike's original art to what it is like today:
Ma Xueli's disciple Ma Sanyuan further developed what he learned and then organized the Siba (Four Seizes) routine into 36 movements so that it
contained the essence of both the fist and animal styles. Starting with Ma Xueli, Xinyi Liuhe Quan became a martial art practiced in secret by Henan
area Muslims. Ma Xueli taught very few disciples, the only three known are Ma Xing, Ma Sanyuan, and Zhang Zhicheng. The two main branches of Henan
Xinyi Liuhe Quan are: Luoyang Style, established by Ma Xing, Ma Xueli's nephew, who later reorganized the original set of many single movements he
inherited from Ma Xueli into less and more complex routines; Lushan Style, coming from Zhang Zhicheng; the style was later developed by Mai Zhuangtu
and hence is also referred to as Mai Style. The Luoyang version is very rarely seen, it composed of two parts: 'Ding Shen Quan' (Fixed Body) - hard
practice methods, including mainly short sets and some single movements practice (like 'Bai She Tu Xin' -'White Snake Spits Tongue'; 'Si Ba' -'Fours
Seizes'; 'Lou Men Qi Zong' -'Deflecting the Gate', 'Rising and Jumping', and many others); 'Xuanmiao Quan' (Obscure Boxing) - various soft training
methods; there used to be also a Light Skill training, but along with 'Xuanmiao Quan' it is said to be completely lost. The Luoyang system is very
different from either the Mai Zhuangtu system or the Dai Shi Xin Yi (Shanxi Xinyi Liuhe), as it does not practice any animal forms, and most of its
routines consist of a few movements linked together in short sequences. Luoyang does have a 'Si Ba' set, of which some of the movements share the
same names as Mai Zhuangtu's movements, though they are performed radically different. The main method for basic training in Luoyang is 'Dan Ba' (single strike), which is completely different from the 'Dan Ba' from the Mai style. (The Dai Shi Xinyi style from Shanxi does have a specific 'Wu Xing Chuan'
(Five Elements) routine, 'Shi Da Xing' (Ten Animals), 'Qi Xiao Xing' (Seven Small Animals), 'San Quan' (Three Fist's), 'Si Ba' (Four Strikes), and various others.

Other branches that developed north of Henan are now completely different in content and body methods and so on because it more than likely started being influenced from outside sources that XY practitioners previously had learned. From Henan, Xinyi Liuhe Quan reached northwards to Dai Longbang of
Shanxi Province, who modified the art and developed the second main branch, known as Dai Family Xinyi Quan. Some sources identify Dai's teacher
as Li Zheng who taught in Henan, near the inn that Dai Longbeng was working at there with his sons).

The Dai XY style evolved from Henan Xin Yi Liuhe Quan. Dai family XY features the Five Elements postures, whereas the Xinyi Liuhe Quan does not
feature it directly, rather they are implied in the various postural movements of the style. The Dai family also contains the Zha Shi Chui
routine, which developed from Liuhe Tang Lang Quan- Six Harmony Preying Mantis boxing, which Dai Longbeng had previously learned from martial
material from. Where did the Five Elements material come from? Some say that the Dai family already practiced it in their family style.

Note: Luoyang is known for many martial arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Jike's time is called the 'Long Men' - 'Dragon's Gate’ from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the 'Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan' system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around 1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan. Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called 'Long Men Quan' (Dragon Gate Fist) which is know to be a 'Luohan Shiba Shou' - 'Luohan 18 Hands set practiced by the Cai family lineage of 'Hua Quan' - 'Glorious Boxing' style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the same name '. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey, Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others. This routine contains postural movements that are almost identical to the Five Elements Boxing of Shanxi and Hebei Xing Yi Quan, they are done in the same order as well. The first postural movement is identical to Pi Quan, the second to Tzuan Quan, the third to Beng Quan, the fourth to Pao Quan, and the fifth to Heng Quan. Also the rest of the movements are similar to the Sparrowhawk movements of Xing Yi Quan. Perhaps Ma learned these as well? Being that this set, originally from Hua Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Jike's art reached Ma Xueli of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.

As time passed, the martial art continued to be changed according to the experiences and insights of its various masters. It remained fairly obscure until Li Luoneng, (1803 -1888), a traveling bodyguard from Hebei, also known as Li Nengran, learned the art from the Dai family in the 19th century, and further developed it in Shanxi and Hebei into what is now known as Xingyi Quan, the third main branch. The Shanxi and Hebei branches of Xingyi Quan have various schools within them that have stylistic differences in their technical practices. Li Luoneng and his famous successors, which include Guo Yunshen, Li Cunyi, Zhang Zhaodong, Sun Lutang, and Shang Yunxiang, greatly popularized Xingyi Quan, spreading it across Northern China. Each one changing and adjusting XY Quan based on their previous martial arts experience and insights gained during mastery. Li Luoneng is thought to have really learned XY from Guo Wai Hen. Guo Wai Hen was a Dai family Xinyi Quan practitioner who also practiced the He Family Tongbei (a white ape style). Guo created his own version of Xinyi Quan that was mixed with Tong Bei ideas, techniques, and postures, further reinforcing any ancestral roots that Henan Xinyi Quan had to Dong Cheng's Tongbei Quan. According to research by Jarek Szymanski, both Dai family and Guo Xinyi Quan emphasizes the coordination of the breath with actions, and the Five Elements (a concept that also goes further back to Ba Shan Fan and Shaolin Wu Quan / Luohan Quan). Guo's system has many Pao (cannon) forms, which are first learned as loose techniques. Some form of Guo's version of Dai Xin Yi Quan eventually was learned by Li Luoneng, who brought the much changed art to Hebei province from Shanxi, and who may have changed the name of the art into 'Xingyi Quan', which now contains the 'Five Elements' and the 'Twelve Animal' routines. Xingyi quan practitioners from Shanxi Province, with the center in Taigu County, consider Dai Wenxiong (1769 - 1861), Dai Longbang's second son, as Li Laoneng's teacher. Guo's lineage instead claims that he was Li's teacher. There were unproven stories spread by some people in Shanxi that Guo had also learned Yuejia Quan and that this also had influenced his Xinyi martial arts style.

From this point in time, for some reason, the legendary story of Yue Fei being the founder of Xing Yi spread to Hebei province from Shanxi and became
widely heard, especially after Sun Lu Tang wrote this in his Xingyi book. In Hebei it is known that Liehe Men style has Yue Fei material in its system.
Perhaps that is how Cao Jiwu became mentioned as being a student of Ji Jike? I can't find ANY information that confirms that Cao actually really studied with Ji. There are gazettes from Cao Jiwu's time that mentions him as being from Anhui and being a great martial artist, but nothing that I know of, I could be wrong, directly says that he learned anything from Ji Jike/Ji Longfeng. Also, Li Luoneng is said by many of his students in Hebei to have returned there with ONLY the Five Elements material and HALF of the animal material. Where did the full development of the 12 Animal forms seen today in XY Quan come from? And it is from the Hebei people that the story of XY coming from Yue Fei and being connected to Liuhe Quan seems to originate from. But in Hebei, two different Yue Fei related styles share material that is very close to that found in Xing Yi Quan. One is much like Five Elements and the other is much like the Animal routines found in Xing Yi Quan.

One of the most famous sets from the Bafan Men system taught in Hebei was the Bafan Shou set; this set shares postures and movements associated with
the Five Elements (Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pao, and Heng) postural movements and the Ba Shi Quan that are also seen within Xingyi Quan. According to Wang Jinquan's book, Yue Shi Bafan Shou Quan Fa, Bafan Shou was also commonly known by three other names: 1) 'Zi Mu Quan', which means 'Son-Mother Fist', since one move will lead to another; 2) 'Yue Shi Lian Quan', meaning 'Yue's Style Continuous or Combination Fist', and 3) 'Yue Shi San Shou' ('Yue Style Free Hands'). Given General Yue Fei's fame and respect by the Chinese population, the Chuojiao style (which was often taught along with the Bafan Quan style) to this day contains a set known as Yue Fei San Shou ( Free Hands), as does the Eagle Claw style, and others. In Hebei, the Bafan Shou set was originally called 'Yuejia Chui' -'Yue Family Hammers' by the people that first practiced it. The original version of this Bafan Shou set had only nine movements. Over time, as people in Hebei added to it, the set expanded into 360 movements; later people worked to discard the excess and pare the set down to 3 sets of 8 routines each, and the set was renamed to 'Yue Shi Bafan Shou Quan' -'Yue Postures Eight Rotations Hands Boxing'. This set is very closely related to the Yue Jia Duan Da that was once practiced at Shaolin during the Ming Dynasty, as mentioned previously. And also this set is a direct ancestor to the Eagle Claw style that was practiced in Hebei that Liu Dekuan practiced along with many others.

(Before learning Bagua Zhang, Liu Dekuan taught this Yuejia San Shou / Bafan Shou in Beijing. Liu Shijun had simplified the set before he taught it to
Liu Dekuan. Liu Dekuan, originally from Cangzhou, also was taught the Liuhe Quan (6 Harmony Boxing) style from Tian Chunkui and Li Fenggang
(Li Guangming's nephew). The Cangzhou Wushu Zhi records that Liu He Quan was transmitted to Cangjing, Hebei. Anti-Qing rebel, Zhang Ming passed through Qingzhen Balizhuang in Botou village, Hebei Province, when he collapsed from an injury. A Chinese Muslim ("hui zu") named Cao Zhenpeng took the injured warrior into his home and gave him medical attention. Later, Zhang taught Liuhe Men (Six Harmony School) to Cao Zhenpeng (who had previously practiced Shaolin Quan) in Cangzhou, Hebei. During the 1800s, Cao taught his son Cao Peng. Peng taught various others until it reached Putouzhen. Then Liuhe Men gradually spread in Hebei and other provinces north. Another origin of Liuhe Men in a different region says that a Zhao Ming Shan, after a defeat at the hands of the Qing, sought refuge in Shao Meng village with a land owning family. He protected his employer's compound and taught Gao Kaidi, Li Pengfei, and Guo Bangxun. Guo passed it to his disciple in Cai Zi village,: Li Guo Rong. Li handed it down to his neighbor, the official Ma Shuo Yuan. The Shaolin version of Liuhe Quan was developed by Monk Xu Naluo, who was responsible for tending the monastery's kitchen fires. Again, all these Liuhe Quan martial arts are related in some way historically. Evidence seems to indicate that the concepts of the original Liuhe Quan styles were absorbed into Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan as it first developed. The early roots of Liuhe Men originated in the last years of Yuan Dynasty and the beginning years of Ming Dynasty. It was originally practiced in the same Hebei/ Shandong/ Henan border areas as where the Meihua Zhuang / Plum Flower Pole style was founded earlier, and was developed only a little later than the Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan style. The Hebei version of Liuhe Men was derived from techniques found within the Meihua Zhuang style, hence it was mostly practiced by Chinese Muslims, as was Xinyi Liuhe Quan. Liuhe Men was an integrated system based on the six fighting arts of generals and famed fighters: Yang Youji, Wu Zhixu, Yue Fei, Xue Rengui, Zhao Kuangyin, and Yang Yanzhao.)

How did Yue Fei come to be known as the founder of XY Quan? Well, branches of Yuejia Quan developed from various Southern Song Dynasty era army
officers and soldiers (post Yue Fei's death in 1142). These branches spread from Northern China to Southern China and Malaysia, where it became known as a Hakka martial art. Originally the boxing methods that Yue Fei was said to have taught, or at least taught within the Southern Song armies were not
named as such and it is only generations later that it became known as Yue Jia Quan. Long after Yue Fei's death, all the various martial arts practiced
by his direct familial descendants and by the returning officers and soldiers of the Southern Song army became known as 'Yuejia Quan', meaning,
the "Yue Fei FAMILY of Boxing", named only in his honor. When these men returned home they brought with them the martial arts that they learned
while in the army and from fellow soldiers from other provinces. In essence, Yuejia Quan is a general name for the various Central Plains military
martial arts (spear, staff, sword, and fist) of the Southern Song armies, which disbanded all over China after its defeat by the Jin. In various
areas, some form of Yue-family boxing was passed down from generation to generation for over 850 years. In recent times, various ancient artifacts
and Yue family quan pu have been found that were previously buried underground. There are many different Yuejia Quan styles all over China, all
sharing some common stylistic attributes. These branches of Yuejia Quan spread into various parts of China, both where his descendants had moved to
in China, and wherever members of Yue Fei's armies disbanded to. The Yue Jia Chui was the original material upon which the present day Yuejia Quan found in the Southern Hubei and Jiangxi provinces were based upon. Other than these more ancient versions of Yue Jia Quan passed on for the last 800 years either by the descendents of Yue Fei's sons or by the members of the Southern Song army, most of the other Yue Jia Quan styles practiced in other areas began in post-Qigong dynasty times. In Anhui, the Yuejia Quan is called Wang (King) Yue Quan. The Wu Ji style, which also says its routines and neigong practices are from Yue Fei, practices both sitting and standing versions of the Ba Duan Jin and also 12 Animal Shapes sets.

During the late 1800s (after Xingyi Quan founder Li Laoneng (1783-1867) had returned from Shanxi), Yuejia Quan was taught in Hebei by Yue Qinshan,
who taught it to famous Yang Taiji master Wang Lanting and to Li Ruidong (1851-1917). Yue taught "Yue Family Xinyi Liuhe Quan", which consisted only of three sets: "Xinyi Shi Er Xing Quan" - "Heart Mind 12 Forms Boxing", "Ba Ba Shen Na Luan Cha Quan - Eight Seizes Divine Holds Random Piercing Boxing", and "Qixing Bagua" - "Seven Stars Eight Trigrams". The 12 shapes are Bear, Lion, Monkey, Horse, Cat, Tiger, Chicken, Swallow, Eagle, Crane, Quail, and Dragon. In Zhejiang and Jianxi, Yue Family Boxing is also called "Xinyi Wu Xing" (Heart Mind 5 Shapes, which are Tiger, Monkey, Snake, Elephant, Eagle). In Linyin, Henan province, there is 'Yuefei's Xinyi Quan', (found by Hugang); it has the 'Tou Lu Jia' set (first frame), 'Er Lu Jia' set (second frame), 'Yuefei Qiang' (spear), 'Qinglong Ruhai' set ('Black Dragon into the Sea'), and others. Hugang called it "the fossil of the Xinyi Quan". The common point is that they all use the "Yue Wu Mu's Shuan Tui Shou (Double Hand Push)". Same as does Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan and Shanxi / Hebei Xingyi Quan. During the course of over 850 years, the Yuejia Quan style developed a strong body of theory that went beyond the simple needs of army battlefield fighting, developing into a full martial art. Yue-family boxing is based primarily on the principles on combining inner and outer bodies in both theory and application, and its principal philosophy stems from the interaction of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements and their correspondence with the Heart, Liver, Lung, Spleen, and Kidney in the human body. Yuejia Quan theory is numbers based, composed of 3 Gates, 4 Doors, 5 Elements, 6 Harmonies, 7 Stars, 8 Trigrams, 9 Palaces, 12 Animals, 72 Methods, 108 Techniques, etc. The style makes use of four major actions: 'float', 'sink', 'swallow', and 'spit'. The issuing of force is quick and clean, "hard hidden in 10,000 soft actions". The style features three forms of power: Ming Jin, Obvious Power, An Jin, Hidden Power and Hua Jin, Transformed Power. The postural movements are connected but distinct in nature, with one evasive movement flowing into one strike.

The leg techniques are mostly for knee strikes and tripping, rather than kicks. The stances can be very narrow and sideways, or very wide. The main
stances are done with swift half steps; the back weighted Chicken Step (Shiji Bu) which is then followed by a "L-Shaped" Horse Step (Ma Bu) (shown
following). The Shiji Bu and a Bu are back-weighted stances, the Ma Bu is called the Zhan Bu (battle stance), functioning very much like Xingyi Quan's
Santi stance. Besides advancing and retreating stepping patterns, Yue Jia Quan features the distinctive 'half step' footwork where one lunges forward
with the front foot and the back foot slides up to shorten the stance. The forward momentum gained brings 'Flow' when stepping with the front leg to
strike while moving from one posture to another. All these Yuejia Quan leg and stepping methods are very much in common with those seen in both Xinyi
Liuhe Quan and Xingyi Quan. This same stepping is also the most fundamental step method in Ba Fan Quan, called Han Di Xing Zhou. (It is a quick and
practical stepping pattern used to stay single weighted in combat): It consists of keeping one foot forward and the other foot in the back; the
front foot keeps moving forward, while follow up is done with the back foot. When striking, Yuejia Quan boxers articulate sounds to help generate power.
Also, they combine breathing (Qi) with mental imagery or intention (Yi) to make their striking more powerful and complete. Hands strikes are used more
than feet methods. Another characteristic is that it does not lift the knees nor does it wield the elbows away from the body. The Henan branch of Yuejia
Quan requires the use of low stances and closed knees. When generating power, practitioners jerk the elbows and turn the shoulder to pass energy to
the fists. Single and double hand movements are practiced. Also, in Yue Family Quan Pu material, it is said "Wu Mu said that: chicken leg, dragon
body, bear bladder, eagle claw, tiger embraces head, shout surprised as thunder, in order for agility", which is very much the same as what is said
in Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan and Hebei Xingyi Quan training.

There is much postural similarity that can be seen between Henan Yuejia Chui / Huangmei Yuejia Quan and Henan Xinyi Liuhe Quan. Besides the theoretical overlap, a good number of the palm, fist, leg, and stepping methods are often identical. While the most of the movements in Yuejia Quan are done more like the close range movements seen in the Northern Mantis style, there are many postural and stepping movements that are unique to both Yuejia Quan and Xinyi Liuhe Quan. In stepping, they share the: regular, inch worm, seven star, half, skipping, flying, sideways, and back steps.

Many of the various 12 animals material within the Yuejia Quan routines can be found analogous with postural movements within the 10 Big Shapes
(featured in the Muslim Ma Xueli derived lineages). Further, the Xinyi Liuhe Quan (of the Li Chenhu non-Muslim lineage in the Luoyang area) practiced in
the Taihang Mountain area of Henan features '12 Big Postures' material; which alludes to Yuejia Quan's 12 Animals material. This village area has
practiced Xinyi Quan without outside interference for over 300 years, which includes: 12 Big Postures, 20 or so small fistic routines, Broad Sword, Plum
Flower Spear, Staff (Ying Ba Guai), nei gong sets ("Liu Bu Gong ", "Lian Chi Jar", "Ba Duan Jin", and 12 posture "Yi Jin Jin"), and a quan pu. 12 Big
Postures is similar to the 10 Animals or 10 Shapes in other Xinyi lineages. Note: As previously noted, the "Ten Principles of Xinyi Liuhe" section of
the Xinyi Liuhe Quan book, dated 1713, mentioned 12 forms. According to the Mai Zhuang Tu lineage, during the mid-1700s, Li Shiming taught the '12 Big
Postures' set to the monks of Shaolin Temple.

What Yuejia Quan and Xinyi Liuhe Quan appear to share are all the unique appearing postures from the 10 Big Animal Shapes and many other hand
striking methods and stepping patterns. Most of which are only practiced by these two styles. This is especially true of Xinyi's circling arm movement,
"Cross Shape Horizontal Angle" - Shi-Zi Jue Heng, which is identical to Yuejia Quan's main most important striking method. Regardless, it does
not seem that Xinyi Liuhe Quan was developed directly from Yuejia Quan, as they mostly share single postures and stepping patterns, and just a few
sequences of postural movements, but rather that these shared postures must come from a common source since so many of the postures and unique stepping methods are analogous.

Keep in mind that originally Henan Xinyi Quan was a single set of many single movements. Later these were made into short routines. This was also
true for Yuejia Quan as well. Furthermore, in many areas where Xinyi Liuhe Quan was practiced, Yuejia Quan predated it in the same areas. For example,
in Nanyang, Henan, both styles were practiced there for centuries (Yue Fei had visited there and some of his soldiers lived there). Perhaps there was
cross pollinating influences on both styles?

On the other hand, the Xingyi Quan style (from Hebei and Shanxi) shares more than just postures and stepping patterns with Yuejia Quan. For example, the Santi posture as seen in Xingyi Quan is also analogously found in Yuejia Quan throughout the Three Gate Posts - San Men Zhuang and in the Shuang San
Men (Double Three Gates) sets. Also, the salute opening movements in this Yuejia Quan set essentially the same as done in most Xingyi Quan sets.
Yuejia Quan shares whole sequences of analogous postural movements that are found in the Xingyi 12 Animal Routines. The Yuejia Quan versions appear to
be more detailed versions of the analogous Xingyi Quan routines. Also, standing postures seen in Xingyi but not Xinyi Quan are identical to those
seen in Yuejia Quan as well. The question is why does Xingyi Quan share so many sequential postural movements with those of Yuejia Quan, especially the upright Santi posture?

The Xingyi Quan - Rooster set from 12 Animals XY Quan is functionally and analogously the same as the first half of the postural movements from Yuejia Quan's 'Er Lian Quan' set! Many other sequences of postural movements from the Animal routines found in Xing Yi Quan can be found within the routines of Yue Jia Quan, such as XY Snake, Swallow, Horse, Monkey, and others, and done pretty much the same way. Some branches of Xingyi Quan contain postures that are more like the postural movements performed in Yuejia Quan than like other branches of Xingyi Quan. Finally, Xingyi Quan's 12 Lian Chui and 12 Hong Chui sets not only share some sequences of postural movements from the Yuejia Quan Qi Xing (7 Star) and Ba Fa (8 Methods) sets, but they share the idea of "hammer" sets, as found in the Beijing area's famous Yue Jia Chui sets practiced in the Qing army barrack as taught by Liu Dekuan.

So, did the practitioners / masters of Xing Yi Quan after Li Lounang taught it in Shanxi and Hebei fill in the gaps with material from Yue Jia Quan? Or
does Yue Jia Quan and Xing Yi Quan SHARE common ancestry making their postural movements, concepts, and so on overlap so greatly? I have page and
pages of images and information in my forthcoming book showing the overlap between Yue Jia Quan and Xinyi Louhe Quan and Xingyi Quan.

Sal Canzonieri

[Wanderingdragon]

LOL yep, that's a lot of pondering all right , have to set aside some time to read it , off to work now.

[salcanzonieri]

need to include:
YueJiaQuan has many very different types around Henan. In a village near ZhengZhou, there is specifically a YueJia XinYi Quan, which uses Songshan Shaolin formcharacteristics.

[Bill]

Sal

You are a jewel. Thank you for all of your hard work to put this together.

I'll be first in line when your book is available.

[Doc Stier]

Nice job, Sal. Very cool!

Your research is most interesting and thought provoking indeed. Thanks for sharing it here.

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks! Much appreciated! I have all the photos and graphics that compare routines between one style and another.

To add to all the above, Shaolin in the Dengfeng area has an ancient set called Shaolin Wu Xing Lian Huan Quan, the set is pretty old, its about as old as their Luohan and Hong quan material.
Anyways, though it contains Shaolin shen fa, etc., there moves are: step forward to do Pi Quan left and right (they call it spear hands), then a squat down with the spear hand pointing down, then the foot turns in and then step forward to do an right elbow strike, then cross step behind with front leg while hammering with left fist, then twist around body to do a back fist, then step forward and do two Beng Quan, then do one Tzuan Quan, then do Dragon shape movements with kick, then repeat all on the other side (like most of the XY sets do). You can download a copy of the set (drawings) from here (first one on the list):
http://ishare.iask.sina.com.cn/download/explain.php?fileid=25482116

There is also a Shaolin jingang Bashi set, that has stepping patterns just like Xingyi Quan, it looks like a cross between BaJi Quan (because they absorbed this set into their curriculum) and XY. Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS5ISjT1XqU

[salcanzonieri]

The real crux of the thing is that why are the animal forms of Xingyi Quan found within Hebei Yue Jia Quan? The postural movements are near identical, except they are much more detailed with more transition movements. When I first realized that the Rooster shape Si Ba set was the first section of their second set, I was shocked, and actually it is a much more fun and powerful way to do the set.
Then I found that the Snake shape set was there too, then I found the Monkey, the horse, the swallow, the hawk, the tiger, ha ha.
That was too much coincidence to be possible.

If Li Lounang only had half the XY animal sets and according to various XY masters's books from the past, his sets only had the simple movements not the full movements, that's why Hebei people went to Shanxi to learn the full sets, like Li Cunyi, Che, etc.

Also, in my opinion, so far, after the Five Elements, its Linking set, the 12 animals sets, the Ba Shi Quan and the Zha Shi Chui, I think the other Xing Yi Quan sets aren't really from XY (such as the Liuhe Quan, 12 Linked Hammers, 12 Red Hammers, etc.) nor at they that great. All I see is that they are really mostly like Mizhong, Shaolin, Liuhe quan, and so on beginner sets that were popular from the Hebei area, of which XY masters first learned before XY. I think they just used what they already knew first to develop some training sets. But they didn't add much at all to the core XY curriculum of Five Elements, its Linking set, the 12 animals sets, the Ba Shi Quan and the Zha Shi Chui.

[chud]

If Li Lounang only had half the XY animal sets and according to various XY masters's books from the past, his sets only had the simple movements not the full movements, that's why Hebei people went to Shanxi to learn the full sets, like Li Cunyi, Che, etc.

Interesting.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Awesome thread. Sal, your work and research are truly admirable!

Here are my comments to what have been discussed so far:‎

‎1. When you write of ‘Liu He Qiang’, are you suggesting a connection to the same Liu He Qiang that is now ‎commonly practiced alongside empty-handed material in Baji lineages, and is generally quite common nowadays? It ‎is now known as a single form, though from the way you’ve been writing about it, it appears more like a complete ‎system. Here’s my grand-teacher Zhou performing Liu He Qiang:‎
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/27913597-1677776325.html‎

‎2. “Animals movements influenced from the Shaolin temple” – I don’t know. Animals across many Chinese styles ‎share a lot of similarities, because Chinese folklore has attributed specific characteristics to certain animals. ‎

‎3. Have you looked into Dr. Meir Shahar’s research of Shaolin’s history? Highly recommended:‎
http://www.amazon.com/The-Shaolin-Monas ... 082483349X

‎4. “infamous Dr. Stephen Yan” – maybe you should drop the word ‘infamous’… would only serve to ‎get your book politically involved, and that would be a shame =\‎

‎5. “Hebei Xingyi Quan also contains a Liuhe Quan set in its curriculum” – not all lineages. Not even sure ‎if most of them.‎

‎6. The Yu Jia Quan connection – I have never met a practitioner of this style, and know nothing about ‎it. I went on youtube and watched over 10 different videos that were said to be ‘Yue Jia Quan’, and ‎couldn’t see anything remotely similar to XYQ. Do you have good examples you can share here, ‎perhaps?‎

‎7. Teacher of Dai Longbang – I have Dai Longbang at 1732-1801, and Ma Xueli at 1714-1790. They are of ‎the same generation. Since Li Zheng was Ma Xueli’s grand-student, he couldn’t have possibly been Dai ‎Longbang’s teacher (or perhaps you meant another ‘Li Zheng’?). Cao Jiwu was probably Dai ‎Longbang’s teacher. ‎

‎8. “Li Luoneng… a traveling bodyguard” – wasn’t he a farmer all his life?‎

‎9. “The style makes use of four major actions: 'float', 'sink', 'swallow', and 'spit'” – interesting that ‎Southern Mantis is focused on these exactly as well…‎

There is also a Shaolin jingang Bashi set, that has stepping patterns just like Xingyi Quan, it looks like a cross between BaJi Quan (because they absorbed this set into their curriculum) and XY. Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS5ISjT1XqU

This is just TERRIBLE. It's the most horrible performance of Jingang's most basic 8 postures (Liu He Ba Shi) that I have EVER seen. My eyes hurt. It really should not look like that. Neither is this crap related to Baji or XYQ. Here's some decent Liu He Ba Shi:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/114393295-1677776325.html

Shaolin Jingang Bashi is VERY different to XYQ. It is evasive rather than direct. Prefers whipping to whole-body power. Emphasizes combinations and applications rather much more than movement principles and structure. Relies on quickness and agility more than on sensitivity. Goes around instead of digging through. Prefers to step in circles rather then attack head-on and move in straight lines. Favours upward-moving strikes to downward-falling ones... etc. Seeing these arts in real life, you cannot mistakenly think they were somehow historically related (apart from the very general and vague connection which exists between many Chinese Northern styles).

[yeniseri]

In my limited view, I see CMA and the more "crafty development strategies" of a specific art as an extension of cultural tradition, personality and a cult (good way) of projecting oneself onto a national leitai (add village, town, city, nation). All CMA derived from a single source at one time or another so that means if one leaves village X (in Henan province) to a neighbouring one, one can easily claim that the art is a secret one. Over time the 'secret' become more visible so the founder has to create a genealogy to make indelible, the vision. longevity and immortality and as a result elevate the family name. Check it out! We have Chen, then Yang, then Wu2, Wu3, Sun, etc but if we look at Chen, we know they put together arts from the village, incorporated Shaolin (a main source) came up with a mythology then voila! p.s. Li Family could not keep up so they fell by the wayside but then we have neighbouring village of Zhaobao, who share the Chen family art but somewhere along the way, comes up with a different genealogy then they combined it with another art!

Another observation is that if one teacher has an excellent base of a good art, he can transform an obviously sloppily performed into a great performance.
Sal, you are doing a great job so keep the questions and focus.

[salcanzonieri]

Awesome thread. Sal, your work and research are truly admirable!

Here are my comments to what have been discussed so far:‎

‎1. When you write of ‘Liu He Qiang’, are you suggesting a connection to the same Liu He Qiang that is now ‎commonly practiced alongside empty-handed material in Baji lineages, and is generally quite common nowadays? It ‎is now known as a single form, though from the way you’ve been writing about it, it appears more like a complete ‎system. Here’s my grand-teacher Zhou performing Liu He Qiang:‎
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/27913597-1677776325.html‎

‎2. “Animals movements influenced from the Shaolin temple” – I don’t know. Animals across many Chinese styles ‎share a lot of similarities, because Chinese folklore has attributed specific characteristics to certain animals. ‎

‎3. Have you looked into Dr. Meir Shahar’s research of Shaolin’s history? Highly recommended:‎
http://www.amazon.com/The-Shaolin-Monas ... 082483349X

‎4. “infamous Dr. Stephen Yan” – maybe you should drop the word ‘infamous’… would only serve to ‎get your book politically involved, and that would be a shame =\‎

‎5. “Hebei Xingyi Quan also contains a Liuhe Quan set in its curriculum” – not all lineages. Not even sure ‎if most of them.‎

‎6. The Yu Jia Quan connection – I have never met a practitioner of this style, and know nothing about ‎it. I went on youtube and watched over 10 different videos that were said to be ‘Yue Jia Quan’, and ‎couldn’t see anything remotely similar to XYQ. Do you have good examples you can share here, ‎perhaps?‎

‎7. Teacher of Dai Longbang – I have Dai Longbang at 1732-1801, and Ma Xueli at 1714-1790. They are of ‎the same generation. Since Li Zheng was Ma Xueli’s grand-student, he couldn’t have possibly been Dai ‎Longbang’s teacher (or perhaps you meant another ‘Li Zheng’?). Cao Jiwu was probably Dai ‎Longbang’s teacher. ‎

‎8. “Li Luoneng… a traveling bodyguard” – wasn’t he a farmer all his life?‎

‎9. “The style makes use of four major actions: 'float', 'sink', 'swallow', and 'spit'” – interesting that ‎Southern Mantis is focused on these exactly as well…‎

There is also a Shaolin jingang Bashi set, that has stepping patterns just like Xingyi Quan, it looks like a cross between BaJi Quan (because they absorbed this set into their curriculum) and XY. Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS5ISjT1XqU

This is just TERRIBLE. It's the most horrible performance of Jingang's most basic 8 postures (Liu He Ba Shi) that I have EVER seen. My eyes hurt. It really should not look like that. Neither is this crap related to Baji or XYQ. Here's some decent Liu He Ba Shi:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/114393295-1677776325.html

Shaolin Jingang Bashi is VERY different to XYQ. It is evasive rather than direct. Prefers whipping to whole-body power. Emphasizes combinations and applications rather much more than movement principles and structure. Relies on quickness and agility more than on sensitivity. Goes around instead of digging through. Prefers to step in circles rather then attack head-on and move in straight lines. Favours upward-moving strikes to downward-falling ones... etc. Seeing these arts in real life, you cannot mistakenly think they were somehow historically related (apart from the very general and vague connection which exists between many Chinese Northern styles).

1 - No, Liehu Qiang that I mention is the really ancient one that is related to Yang Family Spear, it is spear from the 1500s. The Baji 6 Harmony Spear most likely comes from Muslim martial art style of Hebei.

2- No, it is who taught what to whom, when and where that tells you how styles evolved and cross influenced each other. The Shaolin animal sets were famous and people came from all over to learn them and in return they taught their stuff there. So, you look at sequences of postural movements, their form and functin and where it is when, etc.

3- Yes, I have looked at Dr Meir Sahar's books, I have corresponded with him before I did my book since we were treading on the same ground. I have had access to other stuff he wrote too that not in books. but his Shaolin temple book supports my research and I have found out things that also go beyond his book.

4- ha ha, I added the word infamous for this forum, everyone knows what I mean, ha. Not in my book, I use his Chinese name in my book anyways. But I said that to be funny, sorry.

5- Not all lineages, that's exactly what makes it something to research.

6- Yeah unfortunately the Yue Jia Quan that we would like to see is not in videos, except for some. There is a PDF book available online that has the 10 forms of Yue Jia Quan that is most like XY. Will have to provide a link to it soon as I can find it again. I have a PDF file that I can give people if they email me. Keep in mind that Yue Jia Quan is a vast system and it is done very fast, so slowing it down you can see where it most like XY.
Meanwhile one of the Yue Jia Quan sets is the Bafan Shou that I mentioned in my article aboive, that is all over Youtube and some Shanxi XY branches teach it such as Zhang Xi Gui, here's some links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stbB1ILKdFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWKLgHW8UWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyo4_HVFQW4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEHTAc5jGaY

7- the years for Ma are under dispute. Because it is documented when he was at Shaolin teaching there, and other reasons. Also, I still haven't seen anything independent of the Preface that says Cao Jiwu studied XY with Ji Longbeng.

8, He wasn't a farmer his whole life, he farmed as a way to get to meet Dai Longbang.

9 Because Southern Mantis is a Hakka art, ALL hakka martial art have those 4 attributes, which in the North are more like Yield, Redirect, Absorb, and Release.

10= Ha, no don't confuse that Baji Bashi with this, its not related. Shaolin has another Bashi system that Baji got it from/ Shaolin also has Danshi set that is the most like Baji Quan Bashi. It is identical movements.

[dspyrido]

Another observation is that if one teacher has an excellent base of a good art, he can transform an obviously sloppily performed into a great performance.
Sal, you are doing a great job so keep the questions and focus.

+1 Great job sal. I've been pondering the xylh, 7 star, xy etc. genealogy. We will never really know all the lineage points but your research helps explain some of the "coincidences". I'm in for the book.

Yeniseri - I agree but I'd also say the same can be said about taking a performance form and with the right intent/intensity gleaned from realistic combat training the form starts to not look to impress on performance but to relevance, power & application in combat.

IMO a mistake made by so many from tma is that people feel the forms, or brand or instructor make a difference. Even if all these things are right a useless student will go nowhere. The problem though grows as each brand adds more items to look different and creates a library of activity that doesn't help in combat (the original reason for martial arts). For example do we really need endless chains of performance forms?

I do xylh and even though I know them I don't often do linking, si ba or other long forms. Within the "basic"/"simplistic" forms/moves of 10 animals lies infinite potential and obscure complexity. This only comes out when applying against someone, taking it away and keeping the mindset/frame when practising the so called "form". If you want to chain moves then spar or shadow box.

[salcanzonieri]

Another thing to think about is the Liu Qilan was very famous for his Shaolin Quan training as he was for his XY.
And most of the forms from Hebei XY are attributed to him for their developement.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Thanks for the interesting videos! I do see the many similarities now, especially in the first video.

10= Ha, no don't confuse that Baji Bashi with this, its not related. Shaolin has another Bashi system that Baji got it from/ Shaolin also has Danshi set that is the most like Baji Quan Bashi. It is identical movements.

I was not confusing it! There's Jingang Quan, and there's Jingang Bashi. The Baji Ba Shi are Jingang Bashi's Liu He Ba Shi, and that's what's shown in both the modern Shaolin video you posted and the video by Zhou shifu I posted.


By the way - any thoughts on the origins of modern Zhan Zhuang methods in Xing Yi Quan? (since Li Luoneng)

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks for the interesting videos! I do see the many similarities now, especially in the first video.

10= Ha, no don't confuse that Baji Bashi with this, its not related. Shaolin has another Bashi system that Baji got it from/ Shaolin also has Danshi set that is the most like Baji Quan Bashi. It is identical movements.

I was not confusing it! There's Jingang Quan, and there's Jingang Bashi. The Baji Ba Shi are Jingang Bashi's Liu He Ba Shi, and that's what's shown in both the modern Shaolin video you posted and the video by Zhou shifu I posted.


By the way - any thoughts on the origins of modern Zhan Zhuang methods in Xing Yi Quan? (since Li Luoneng)

Yeah, I know what you are saying about the Bashi, but there are various systems within Shaolin from different time periods and from different "gates" that have routine with the same names but are different sets.
The Baji Quan that has incorporated jingang Bashi, which they got from the master of many styles Li Rundong. He brought in Inner Court Yard Shaolin sect version of Shaolin Bashi. But the other more known standard Shaolin calls their Danshi set the same identical movements with the same identical names as those of the Baji Quan Jingang Bashi and those look much more like what is seen today in Bajia Quan Jingang Bashi. I have video of old Shaolin master doing the Danshi really reall slow, he's in his 90s, in my Youtube Channel videos, and that set (which I learned long ago) is identical movements with those in some branches of Baji Quan, they have identical names for the movements too, kinda like what you showed in your video, but also not.

That particular Shaolin Jingang Bashi that I posted a video of is not really like the Danshi / Baji Quan Jingang Bashi, it is from a different Shaolin system and it is doing for training to step certain ways, that are much more like XY stepping.
Compare these videos by the old master and with Baji Quan and you will see they are doing the same things, and indeed the moves have identical names in both styles.
Here is Shaolin Danshi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB7n94_WT2s
Here is another Shaolin Jingang Bashi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XO85ewT6Ik

Here is Baji Quan Jingang Bashi (Ma and Han family Baji are most like Shaolin Jingang Bashi as done by the old Shaolin master:
Ma style Baji - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfvne6AuRwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUuJkkucB8s
plus the Bashi shown in these videos:http://www.youtube.com/user/BajiAssociation/videos

I think that from what I saw the modern Zhuan Zhuang in XY comes from Bagua Zhang influence but that was in turn from Zhuan Zhuang that was done all over Hebei by Mei Hua Zhuang stylists, who very much interacted with BGZ people via Boxer Rebellion connections.