yeniseri wrote:Apparently Dong's family had an art, whether it is the family itself or of the village? or the name? (Bapanzhang-allegedly debatable) but he changed elements of the village/family name style to match Beijing cultural MA hub and added Daoist?buddhist stuff to make it palatable to the greater public. Most important was the martial skill so it was tantamount to supremacy, over and or in conjunction with CMA of the era. My sources were various CMA magazines from Hong Kong, parts of 'translated articles from a few teachers. If I recall correctly, there were alleged Dong family members who were named as being experts but whose art remained in Dong's village!
jonathan.bluestein wrote:Late master Lu Zhongren who passed recently was a student of Xiao Haibo, and his Ba Pan Zhang included a lot of ZZ training, utilizing many different postures. I wonder when this had gotten into Bagua curriculum, as his ZZ seems more related to how they're trained in XYQ. Lu Zhongren was also a master of Song XYQ via Li Xuzhou, but the Ba Pan Zhang ZZ postures look very different.
longarm wrote:I believe Fan Zhiyong was known as Fan "The Madman" due to his practice of the " four directions eight points " stepping used for fighting. This he was very fast and powerful at and when performed he whirled in multiple directions like a madman.
Andy_S wrote:Thanks for all the commentary. Where does Yin Yang Baguazhang fit into the mix? It looks like a very effective MA, but in terms of its stance and its apparent lack of SPH, I wonder whether it is bagua "as we know it."
We had a topic about this a couple of years ago, so to refresh everyone's memory, the guy in the clip: Tian KeYan is the son of Tian Hui who had studied Baguazhang for a short time with a disciple of Men Baozhen and Xie Pieqi's gongfu brother: Shi Junjie (史俊杰 1924-84). There was some sort of issue with Tian Hui and he was kicked out of the school and then many years later apparently decided to just invent his own lineage and a new history of Baguazhang that predates Dong Haichuan.
They've taken material and theory from Men Baozhen's Baguazhang book and changed a couple things around to make it appear to be different and genuine. Kind of a strange thing to do if you ask me.
D_Glenn wrote:Thanks to this forum we've figured out that Dong Haichuan taught Fan Zhiyong some Qilin/Unicorn Xing. Who later on was invited by another student of Dong Haichuan, Liu Baozhen, to stay with him in Gu'an County, but while up there Fan killed a local bandit and took the alias of Li Zhenqing while he was hiding out in Gu’an County, Hebei Province teaching it to Liu Baozhen, his cousin Xiao Haibo, and the younger Ren Zhicheng.
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jadegreg wrote:D_Glenn wrote:Thanks to this forum we've figured out that Dong Haichuan taught Fan Zhiyong some Qilin/Unicorn Xing. Who later on was invited by another student of Dong Haichuan, Liu Baozhen, to stay with him in Gu'an County, but while up there Fan killed a local bandit and took the alias of Li Zhenqing while he was hiding out in Gu’an County, Hebei Province teaching it to Liu Baozhen, his cousin Xiao Haibo, and the younger Ren Zhicheng.
Not wanting to rain on the parade, but isn't Fan as Li Zhenqing still conjecture. I mean, Fan and 'Ba pan zhang' styles do share many commonalities, which I don't refute, but the fact that Liu Baozhen and Fan were together in the late 19th century is hardly conclusive. Is there some other 'history' I'm missing out on? Did Fan Fenglan verify this information, with respect to Uncle Xiao and Uncle Ren, whom she most certainly would have known, had they trained under 'Li Zhenqing'.
Greg
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