Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Ian on Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:07 am

zenshiite wrote:Back Bridges and L-sits


The guy says he has anterior pelvic tilt / hyperlordosis, i.e. accentuated extenion of the lumbar spine... and your recommendation is more extension?

This is why I don't come to message boards for medical advice.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Mr_Wood on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:55 am

This is why I don't come to message boards for medical advice.


+1 although I do like to hear how other people may approach these issues, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what may be helpful and what is not. Myself I have been given tonnes of advice from professionals and others, some helpful, some not. I suffer from sciatica and lower back pain from what I can only imagine is a rsi from years of working in the building industry and also an anterior pelvic tilt.

Ooh, I've never tried the pillow under the thighs part, that sounds like it could be helpful. Sometimes laying on my back can be annoying because of the arch


This has been working wonders for me the past few months, actually the pillow should be beneath your knees, if you sleep on your side then you put the pillow between your knees, this is more for people suffering back pain but the idea is that it creates a more natural curve in the spine whilst you sleep and i cant imagine it doing you much harm giving it a go.

Do you use a mirror to make sure you're properly aligned? Sometimes I feel that I keep losing alignment and lose focus on it and have to constantly correct myself, but after a while I begin to just feel confused if I'm standing correctly or it's all in my head lol.


Its a tricky one as this should not be the focus of your practice, if it is your not doing zz. I had same problem for some time in that I was focused on making small changes to my structure and it got confusing and was wasted time, better to forget about this all together and concentrate on being relaxed and rooted, if your relaxed enough and weight is sinking and rooted then the posture will naturally become a neutral one with all weight travelling directly through the core to your feet and not having to be concerned about the pelvic tilt, at most a small tilt at the start as you root yourself and then raise your crown to lengthen the spine. The clothes hanging from a hanger idea had always been a good one for me, you do not have to move or alter how they hang, they just do naturally of their own weight.

Think I will give the pilates reformer a go too. Thanks Ken.
Last edited by Mr_Wood on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Mr_Wood on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:37 am

I just saw this online which has an exercise for anterior pelvic tilt

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... rect-them/
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:00 am

kenneth fish wrote:FInd a certified Pilates teacher - learn basic Pilates on the reformer machine for about 3 months. It will give you the strength in the postural muscles that you lack, as well as help to lengthen chronically shortened flexor groups.


this is the best advice here. I've done pilates reformer after Dr. fish's suggestion years ago and it worked wonders for both my wife and I especially for the core.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby NoSword on Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:53 am

GrandUltimate wrote:You know, it's funny because one of the things my Sifu said about my tai chi is that it looks like I have a stick up my ass that goes all the up through my upper body lol.

I do see what you're saying about training multiples movements rather than just one. Now that I think about it, that is similar to what my Sifu wanted me to do with certain exercises after pointed out that I'm terrible at bending backwards and rotating my upper body alone. I'm not sure if you or anyone else is familiar with it, but a friend taught me a set of 7 spine qigong exercises referred to as the "7 moves of the dragon." He learned it from a chinese medicine school in NY (though we haven't seen it anywhere else) but it also trains a lot of movements with the spine in different direction as well as some wavelike movements. When you mentioned arch and hollow, do you mean more around the upper part of the spine in the chest/upper back area?


Arch and hollow are fundamental concepts in gymnastics, they basically refer to the active extension and flexion of the spine. There are analogous ideas in CMA but I like to use this particular terminology, it is very concrete and easy for people to understand.

The easiest way to experience arch and hollow is with the following static holds. These would be a mainstay not only of gymnastics but of pilates as well.

1. Hollow body hold: Lie on your back with your arms as far over your head as they can go, biceps as close to your ears as you can. Flatten your lower back against the floor so that you cannot fit a hand under it. If your anterior tilt is as pronounced as you claim, this will already be challenging for you. You can also try flatting your back against a wall.

Once you can get your back flat, lift your hands and feet off the ground. Hold for as long as you can, as close to the ground as you can.

2. Arch hold: Lie on your stomach. Lift your head, hands and feet off the ground, like Superman flying through the sky. Try and look forward as much as possible. If you are an “S” guy and not a “C” guy, this will probably be easier for you; it’s very challenging for me.

If you don’t feel like doing a long static hold, you can also try lifting your hands and feet off the ground in short, sharp pulses. Another variant is to try differentiating sides of the body, e.g. first lifting the left hand and the right foot, then switching.

Regardless of your personal difficulties, it’s best to train both of these holds in tandem. They work antagonistic muscles and are complementary. Also, since they both create a lot of tension, it’s best to loosen your back afterward with hip circles, etc.

IMO these two holds give you the biggest bang for your buck out of almost any physical training, they are very important both for remedial/therapeutic purposes and for higher levels of performance.

The IMA’s are largely about developing refinement and differentiation in movement along the spine. However, our usage of spinal movement is limited by our ability to generate global flexion and extension.

Fortunately, dysfunctional flexion and extension patterns are also the cause of much aging- and stress-related back pain. So in doing our basic training, we can kill two birds with one stone: laying the foundation for higher level skills while preserving strength and health into old age.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby zenshiite on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:50 pm

GrandUltimate wrote:
zenshiite wrote:Back Bridges and L-sits


The back bridges are definitely something I want to work on. I recently bought a kindle book called Convict Conditioning. Nothing groundbreaking but a lot of ways to work up a strong body through calisthenics, and one section specifically works on back bridges. L sits sound like a good idea, I'll definitely look into those more as well, they might even be mentioned in the book I got.


I have been using Convict Conditioning for 2 and a half years. Love it. Pick up CC2, I think you'll like the Trifecta for active stretching and mobility.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby zenshiite on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Ian wrote:
zenshiite wrote:Back Bridges and L-sits


The guy says he has anterior pelvic tilt / hyperlordosis, i.e. accentuated extenion of the lumbar spine... and your recommendation is more extension?

This is why I don't come to message boards for medical advice.


Look at the combination I suggested. With L-Sits. It works the whole shebang. I guaran-damn-tee it'll do the trick.

http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/princ ... c_Tilt.php

What they are calling a "glute bridge" in this article is what is called a "short bridge" in Convict Conditioning.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby GrandUltimate on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:17 am

Updates:

So I still haven't had a chance to do the Pilates reformer. But besides that I have been doing a lot of qigong and spine movements movements (including the movements that were recommended here). I can't say I've been doing it every day, but I do it a few times a week. My spine actually does feel more flexible, almost as if it now consists of more segments than it originally did (this has changed my training for the better in so many ways already). It's now easier to tilt my pelvis, sink my hips, and fix out the hyperlordosis. However, this takes considerable energy on my part, especially when I'm moving, and even more so if I'm doing my kung fu with full power/intent. It has made a huge difference in my zhan zhuang though. I've also been doing hollows randomly throughout the week. I should do more, but it is extremely hard for me. Anyways, rather than rant in one long paragraph, I figured I'd list some points/findings so far.

-I think this training to have correct alignment is making me more conscious of my body at all times. Of course, that's to be expected. The main thing though is that I've come to realize that for the past 28 years of my life, I've been pretty much keeping my legs locked at the knees! When I correct this, my sinking feels different and it's more capable of straightening my body out. It's hard for me to keep my legs the correct way throughout the day though. I find that the best method so far is to just do zhan zhuang until my legs are tired, because after that my knees naturally bend more.

-I've also realized that my "breathing into the dan tian" may have been somewhat incorrect all this time. When my pelvis and spine are aligned correct, it feels so much harder to bring my breath down deep into the dan tian area. It almost feels like I'm trying to breathe while flexing my abs. I'm doing my hollows but focusing on slow deep dan tian breathing at the same time. Now it feels like my breath is traveling down close to the back of my body than the front as it goes down.

-When I hold correct posture, it looks fine and actually is correct but I "feel" like I'm somewhat slouching. It's strange. I think my mind has gotten so accustomed to the way it held my body before that the correct way feels wrong even when it isn't.

Any thoughts/insight would be appreciated.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:14 am

GrandUltimate wrote:-I've also realized that my "breathing into the dan tian" may have been somewhat incorrect all this time. When my pelvis and spine are aligned correct, it feels so much harder to bring my breath down deep into the dan tian area. It almost feels like I'm trying to breathe while flexing my abs. I'm doing my hollows but focusing on slow deep dan tian breathing at the same time. Now it feels like my breath is traveling down close to the back of my body than the front as it goes down.


That may be because you're trying to breathe while flexing your abs. Once you get somewhat proficient at getting your pelvis alignment where you want it, play with the notion of getting there by relaxing the back side of yourself rather than activating the front side. You want to lengthen the back to create balance, rather than shortening the front. Try to use as little muscle as possible when getting your alignment, then later learn to use your muscles powerfully in and around that alignment. The less energy you use for posture, the more you have available for stabilizing that posture under load or applying force to external objects (like evil ninjas).
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Peacedog on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:02 am

Find a piece of equipment called a reverse hyperextension. It needs to be the plate loaded kind. Start with a light weight using the strap. Don't use the foot carrier.

These are uncommon and mostly found at powerlifting gyms, although these days you can find them at some Crossfit type places. This is the quickest way to fix this I've seen, although like all forms of exercise you need to keep using it. If you cruise craigslist long enough you can usually find a first generation model, which is what I have, for a couple of hundred bucks.

These are the professional models and are very expensive. Rouge Fitness sells a licensed model for about $800.

http://www.westside-barbell.com/profess ... erse-hyper

http://www.roguefitness.com/strength-eq ... 1423414817

Also, get a standing desk and stop using a chair.

This is the easiest way to do this.

I have no doubt Pilates works, but finding a good teacher takes awhile as does learning the system.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:17 am

If strength is the issue, then reverse hypers may do the trick, but if it's an issue with movement patterning it's just as likely to exacerbate the problem.

I disagree with the notion that whatever corrective someone uses they will have to keep doing. If that's the case, then one is most likely layering a compensation pattern on top of a faulty movement pattern, which can work for a while but in my experience has major limitations, and never addresses the underlying issue. People should really be looking at things that lead to better movement patterning/neurological functioning, which once learned the things that taught them can be "graduated" from, and the new, improved patterning can be integrated into regular daily activities. That said, learning tends to be iterative, so people may come back to the same tool or lesson repeatedly over time, but they see it with different eyes and get new learning, which is not the same as rote habituation.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Peacedog on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:45 am

Bhassler,

Strength is the issue and will always be the issue with problems like this.

The vast majority of people with this issue have it due to sitting in a chair too much and not walking around enough. If you work in an office, you will have this problem unless you spend a significant amount of time on fixing it. Things like Pilates, yoga, isometrics are just much less efficient from the standpoint of the amount of time you need to fix the problem. They do it through the same mechanism as a reverse hyper: making the muscles stronger that are weakened by sitting all day long instead of being used to hold your torso upright and walking. Whether you do this through resistance exercise, isometric holds, etc is irrelevant. Its still exercise.

The disadvantage is you need a piece of equipment to do it. The advantage is its really fast.

Otherwise, you spend weeks stretching out your hip flexors and learning a series of isometric holds to keep your body upright once mobility is restored. It requires lots of time to do this as these other methods are much less efficient at building strength. And you need to keep doing the holds as well as the stretches, in most cases, anyway.

Cheers,

Peacedog
Last edited by Peacedog on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby Bhassler on Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:25 pm

"Things like Pilates, yoga, isometrics" are vastly different from one another. Lumping them together ignores the specifics of each so much as to make even referencing them meaningless in this context.

Back to the back hypers, they work the back extensors, which facilitate anterior pelvic tilt. It's not uncommon for muscles that are too weak to shorten chronically as compensation, but even if you strengthen the muscle you still have to address the neuromuscular patterning. Back hypers will address strength but not patterning, and even for strength they will only address extension and not flexion, sidebending, or rotation. Classically based Pilates should address patterning first and then progressively add load (statically and dynamically) to make the pattern both available and functional in daily life. PT and good trainers/coaches will do this as well-- it's not novel or unique to Pilates, it's just standard practice for rehab or quality movement practice. There are still a lot of people who prescribe doing exercises forever to address deficiencies, but those people are mostly addressing symptoms instead of taking a holistic approach to healthy movement, and the field is gradually (and belatedly) moving towards the holistic approach. There are also many, many, many people who just want to make the pain go away and not think about or change anything in their lives, and for those people a set exercise to "fix it" (or surgery) may be the best option.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:38 pm

In my personal experience with myself (many years ago) and students, that is usually that by-product of tight pelvis and back muscles. People who have this often also feature some or all of the following:

- Weak abdominal muscles compared with their erector spinae (the muscles that erect the spine). Solution here is to strengthen relevant muscles.

- Bad postural habits in walking and/or sitting during daily activities. Solution is to see a good movement therapist, but this is tricky since you're so used to yourself only a professional can tell you if this is indeed your problem.

- Do lots of squats / deadlifts or generally weight-train in an unbalanced manner. Solution - see the one below.

- Do not spend enough time stretching. Solution - do a whole lot more!

In addition to all the fine advice you have gotten so far, I would recommend the following stretching postures:

'Pigeon posture'
Image

Bend-over posture
Image

Back bend
Image

These should really help. Remain in each for at least 5 minutes (!!), and practice them a lot, every day if possible (time spend in the posture is very important). Within 1-2 weeks of daily training there should be a noticeable difference, and within 1 month a very big difference. They may not cure the problem altogether, but will certainly help. After you get really good at these, 2 minutes for each some 2-3 times a week will be sufficient to maintain them. After a few months or years of practice, you main require far less maintenance.

Practicing sitting in the Lotus posture (start with half-lotus) will also help. Best thing you can do is to find a good Yoga teacher - that would get even quicker results.

Personally I have cured my former lordosis and that of others with Zhan Zhuang training alone. But that is the longer and more complicated way to do it. Other methods will yield much quicker results. Another factor may be weak ilio-psoas. This too is well addressed in Internal martial arts training.

The Gong Bu stance can aid in correcting hyperlordosis, and also help cause the problem. Here is how most people hold this posture:

Image

The chest is sticking out and the butt is sticking back. This young man features hyperlordosis BY CHOICE, which is aggravated by his chest alignment. What one ought to do instead is to concave the chest (like in Zhan Zhuang) or at least keep it neutral (flat). At the same time, one needs to recruit the ilio-psoas to create a decent posterior pelvic tilt. The Bai Hui point at the crown of the head should press up. The Hui Yin point, between the gonads and rectum, should suck-in slightly. Spine should erect itself like a pearl necklace. The chin should be slightly tucked in. Breathing deep and natural into the dan tian. The front knee pushes forward, and the rear knee locks - the back of the rear knee does not bend. These key points will initiate the tilt you are looking for. While in the gong bu stance, you would be able to better feel and recruit the ilio-psoas, and work on it properly. All of this is contained in the basics of all the internal arts. I teach this to all beginners on their very first class as this is the correct way to practice plow-stepping in Xing Yi. Without these skills and points it is impossible to attain skill in the art.
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Re: Anterior Pelvic Tilt and Chinese Martial Arts...

Postby yeniseri on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:09 pm

The bottom line is that the person who diagnosed the problem would provide background information on strategy.
KFish insight is a great one along with finding the PT professional (primary knowledge base would be PT/Rehab specialist(s), obviously with some knowledge of Pilates)) as a way to work with and through finding the best solution(s).
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