Brussels

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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:34 am

Dmitri wrote:
Members of each Abrahamic tradition are quick to point out the rational and moral flaws in the others. I wonder sometimes, what this world might be like if they were as quick to examine the flaws in their own.

http://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent ... -and-quran

In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve out of it is another thing altogether.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124494788

Several problems with this:
1) it seems that political violence is a far more important theme in core Islamic texts than Judaism or Christianity:
https://www.politicalislam.com/the-poli ... the-koran/

2) Christianity & Judaism both developed the Golden Rule, which precludes violence by implication (in the New Testament & Hillel's commentaries. Islam's version appears to be restricted to fellow Muslims - otherwise slave-taking etc wouldn't be permissible.

So (particularly if the first source in particular is accurate, which I can't vouch for) Islam appears to give a lot more direct scriptural support to (political) violence. That could be an influence of the extent to which it has 'evolved out of it'.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:58 am

Well, Christianity is supposed to be the religion of love. That's its law. (Google). But, people will choose whichever verses justify what they do that doesn't necessarily comply with anyone's idea of "love" --unless it's perverted.

That's why being a "Christian" is easier said than done. See how people quote Christian ideas and then advocate doing the exact opposite.

Anyway, looking at Islam from a political (or economic) pov is still a bit sketchy if it equates all Islam as a single political system or economic unit. The desire of the ardent fundamentalists might be to form a Caliphate that unites all Islam politically and economically. From that pov, it's much like Nazism. But, from the political pov, Islam would be easy to fight. The problem is that it's not.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:08 am

Btw, I hate to post links to address a point. But, afa Islam and the "Golden Rule."

The Golden Rule is implicitly expressed in some verses of the Quran, and is explicitly declared in the sayings of Muhammad. A common transliteration is: ِAheb li akheek ma tuhibu li nafsik. This can be translated as "Wish for your brother, what you wish for yourself" or "Love your brother as you love yourself".

From the Quran: the first verse recommends the positive form of the rule, and the subsequent verses condemn not abiding the negative form of the Golden Rule:

"...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."

— Quran (Surah 24, "The Light", v. 22)
"Woe to those... who, when they have to receive by measure from men, they demand exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due"


Of course, the problem is that anyone can just find verses that contradict the above and other "sayings." My point is that it's not accurate to say that Islam does not have the concept. I'm no Islamic expert; and I don't intend to get into a link battle.
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Re: Brussels

Postby wiesiek on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:26 am

aamc, one word for unbelievers - Lahore,

Steve - "them" are all mixing shits shitheads, which whirring it into the emptyheads division , producing >guns meat<
Now, when I`m re-thinkin`:
"them" -should cover all inert-intellectually >holy verses< believers.

When I need holly verses , - I do direct call, no need for 2000 year old telephone book .
Most of the numbers is outdated long ago... -joint-
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Re: Brussels

Postby wiesiek on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:30 am

ps.
Steve - same verses in the Bible, problem: in Quoran unbelievers not included :D
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Re: Brussels

Postby Dmitri on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:33 am

onebir wrote:if the first source in particular is accurate, which I can't vouch for

A website with domain name "politicalislam.com" biased towards the idea of "political islam"? Naaah... ;D

But regardless -- I hope you're not trying to juxtapose how politicized Islam is to how politicized Christianity is... 'cause it'll give Islam a good run for the money, in that respect.

Every single "major-enough" religion out there has been (and will continue to be) used and abused by politicians for all sorts of agendas. That's just natural, and unavoidable.


Re. the Golden Rule -- Islam seems to have several references to the idea, a couple of them with almost the exact meaning of the biblical "do unto others..." maxim, but that's not a very good measure IMHO, because it can still be easily interpreted to promote one's own faith (i.e. you might want others to burn you at the stake if you were a witch, but of course you aren't one, so...) Hope it's making sense.
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Re: Brussels

Postby wiesiek on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:35 am

oh
ok
devils is in the interpretation/s/...
no chance, we have to make direct callll -woot-
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Re: Brussels

Postby wiesiek on Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:59 am

.."Everybody knows what happened. Now, what should we do about the TSA? Or, what should we do in general? Or, is there really anything that can be done about people doing such things?.."

NO
generally speakin`,
Most population don`t recognize, that war is in the progress, just Theatre is different -really whole planet.
Bum-bum may happen anywhere anytime
and you individually can not do anything to prevent it /send a dollar for anti-T group? ;)/
Antarctica is the only safe place.
There is freezing cold, terrorists doesn`t like to frozen their asses before the "trip", so yes there is safe, still very safe.
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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:13 pm

Dmitri wrote:A website with domain name "politicalislam.com" biased towards the idea of "political islam"? Naaah... ;D

Let him whose source is unbiased cast the first... joint :P

Dmitri wrote:Every single "major-enough" religion out there has been (and will continue to be) used and abused by politicians for all sorts of agendas. That's just natural, and unavoidable.

Sure, but the the analysis in that article seems reasonable (I checked*). ie Islam offers more scriptural support options for a violent political agendas. OTOH it takes some theological acrobatics to get from 'turn the other cheek' to wiping out the population of Jerusalem (or whatever). And the ethnic smiting of the Old Testament just wasn't an option for Jews largely living as minorities in diaspora & this coloured the oral lore.

Steve James wrote:Of course, the problem is that anyone can just find verses that contradict the above and other "sayings." My point is that it's not accurate to say that Islam does not have the concept. I'm no Islamic expert; and I don't intend to get into a link battle.

And I didn't say that; I said the concept is negated or (inverted?) if applied only to co-religionists, which the context implies. It can then become a basis for discrimination against people of other religions, and an instrument for coercive proselytism. (Much as the jizya tax has apparently been used to pressure Christians and Jews into conversion at times in some Islamic regimes.)

* I just pulled down the 3rd vol of Muhammed's biography Al-Sira** c/p'd to a text file, and counted lines with various violent words***. Here are the line counts:
652 kill
457 war
248 sword
162 fight
123 arrow
102 hit
89 slave
71 stab[bed]
56 execut[e|tion]
44 siege
34 strike
14 murder
9 rape
8 jihad
3 massacre
= 2072 of 22218 total lines (9.3%).

So maybe 10% of the lines contain "violent words". The paragraphs are quite long; the percentages in the politicalislam.com link could be based on counting the paras containing similar words & don't look too implausible, if this volume is representative.

**https://ia801600.us.archive.org/3/items/AlSiraAlNabawiyya4VolumeSet/Al-Sira%20al-Nabawiyya%20Vol%203.pdf

***in linux bash shell just:
$ cat al_sira_vol3.txt | grep WORD | wc
line count is first number.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:29 pm

A comparative body count in real life (and history) versus a word count from a text (not the Quran, iim) would be more practical, and less theological.

I said the concept is negated or (inverted?) if applied only to co-religionists, which the context implies.


If you mean that Jesus's ideas applied universally and Muhammad's only to members of his own religion, I'm not sure you're correct. However, Abraham's religion was exclusive and applied only to, eventually, Jews. The universalization of Jesus's idea of "true" religion is not the same as the tradition from which he came. I mean, one could do a "violent word count" comparison of the Old Testament to the New.

I'm no expert on the Quran or the hadithas, but I know a bit of the Bible, especially the NT. When you argue about what applies to whom, I think of the phrase "love they neighbor." Shucks, Mark's one of my favorites. I mentioned this one in passing.

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”


I'm not sure how to interpret "neighbor" in a universal context other than including everyone. Do Christians actually include everyone. I say yeah.
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Re: Brussels

Postby chud on Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:43 pm

Steve James wrote:A comparative body count in real life (and history) versus a word count from a text (not the Quran, iim) would be more practical, and less theological.



And would show much the same thing.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:34 pm

Ooh, are you willing to do the US first? This century is fine; last one is better, but from 1619 is also acceptable. Really.
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Re: Brussels

Postby windwalker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:47 pm

onebir wrote:
Dmitri wrote:
Members of each Abrahamic tradition are quick to point out the rational and moral flaws in the others. I wonder sometimes, what this world might be like if they were as quick to examine the flaws in their own.

http://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent ... -and-quran

In the end, the scholars can agree on one thing: The DNA of early Judaism, Christianity and Islam code for a lot of violence. Whether they can evolve out of it is another thing altogether.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124494788

Several problems with this:
1) it seems that political violence is a far more important theme in core Islamic texts than Judaism or Christianity:
https://www.politicalislam.com/the-poli ... the-koran/

2) Christianity & Judaism both developed the Golden Rule, which precludes violence by implication (in the New Testament & Hillel's commentaries. Islam's version appears to be restricted to fellow Muslims - otherwise slave-taking etc wouldn't be permissible.

So (particularly if the first source in particular is accurate, which I can't vouch for) Islam appears to give a lot more direct scriptural support to (political) violence. That could be an influence of the extent to which it has 'evolved out of it'.


Agree ;)

This site has a chart that compares each

Jesus and Muhammad,
Islam and Christianity:
A Side-by-Side Comparison

It is not the purpose of this site to promote any particular religion,
including Christianity. However, we do enjoy refuting nonsense,
such as the claim that Muhammad and Jesus preached a
morally equivalent message or that all religion is the same.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... ammad.aspx

.

The "Christian world" and the Islamic world contrast sharply in other ways as well, from the disparate condition of human rights and civil liberties to economic status. An astonishing 70% of the world's refugees are Muslims - usually seeking to live in Christian-based countries.

While Western societies take seriously "scandals" such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo (where no one has actually been killed), Muslims routinely turn a blind eye to their own horrible atrocities, even those committed explicitly in the name of Allah. The Muslim world has yet to offer a single apology for the hundreds of millions who were consumed by centuries of relentless Jihad and slavery.

These sharp differences are almost certainly rooted in the underlying religions, which begin with the disparate teachings and examples set by Jesus and Muhammad...


The OP
is there really anything that can be done about people doing such things?


Probably not for lone wolf type of acts.

These are not lone wolf type of attacks they are driven by followers of an ideology
that allows for such attacks as part of its doctrine. Even if the actions are condemned publicly
the practice of "Taqiyya" allows for this while still supporting them.
Leaders in the Arab world sometimes say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then say something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Yassir Arafat was famous for telling Western newspapers about his desire for peace with Israel, then turning right around and whipping Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brussels

Postby leifeng on Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:38 pm

I don't think there are any reasonable solutions at this point. The only thing that might work is a united attempt by the countries in the west to regulate Islam. They can choose a few moderate branches of Sunni and Shiite. Then they can start promoting those versions and censor everything that might lead to violence and terrorism. All the imams who want to work in the western countries need to promote one of those standard types of Islam and anyone who doesn't should be sent to a re-education camp. The new Muslim immigrants should also be educated in one of those branches before they are allowed to stay in those countries. The governments should especially pay attention to the religious education of their young children. Hopefully mass brainwashing and controlling the internet can at least reduce the terrorism in a few decades.
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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:19 am

Steve James wrote:A comparative body count in real life (and history) versus a word count from a text (not the Quran, iim) would be more practical, and less theological.

In terms of influence on the present, what's relevant is what people read (& are taught offers a good role model) I think.

If you mean that Jesus's ideas applied universally and Muhammad's only to members of his own religion, I'm not sure you're correct. However, Abraham's religion was exclusive and applied only to, eventually, Jews. The universalization of Jesus's idea of "true" religion is not the same as the tradition from which he came. I mean, one could do a "violent word count" comparison of the Old Testament to the New.

It seems that strands of thought in Judaism had come out of that ethnocentrism shortly before Christ (Hillel refd above); perhaps Christianity partly reflects those. IDK, not a theologian. (But a tendency to secessionism might make Christian theological texts an unreliable guide on this point anyway.)

There's a comparison of Old & New Testament & Islamic texts in the PoliticalIslam link above; the text I did those counts on is clear winner, with the Koran about level with the Old Testament. But the Old Testament isn't the entire Judaic cannon; there are later commentaries. A more relevant comparison might be with those - which AFAIK aren't about violent proselytism & territorial expansion of the latter part of Muhammed's life (in Al Surat, vol 3 of which I did the counts on).

I'm not sure how to interpret "neighbor" in a universal context other than including everyone.

Sure - anyone you end up having contact with. That's the theory anyway ;)
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