Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:45 pm

johnwang wrote:I assume "read" is dodge, yield, sticky, soft, follow, ..., the "water" strategy and the opposite of "force against force". For example, you hook punch me, I dodge my head under it and counter with an uppercut.

The "double hay-makrs" is "force against force", the "metal" strategy that you use knife to cut the wood. It doesn't matter what your attack may be, I just use snow plow to clear the space in front of me. It's different strategy.


Actually lomachenko uses this strategy in the video to. He applies cut across and hook (earth) plus pat down and overhand (metal)(using hsing-i terminology). But he also does the evasion moves. He varies the strategy.

johnwang wrote:The "octopus" is used when "you are not moving" and I initial the attack. When both you and I are moving (in action), it will be harder to apply it. It's the "earth" strategy. You move in inch by inch while your opponent is in boxing guard. When the distance is close enough, you then jump in. For an octopus to chase a shark, the octopus will never get the shark. Octopus always attacks by surprise while it's prey is not moving.


Ah i think I see it now. It sounds like a wrapping and control strategy to setup throws and chinna.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:37 pm

While it's nice to analyze a great boxer like Lomachenko, we should also keep in mind that this is an example of "boxing vs. boxing" in the ring, so their movements and responses are greatly limited by the rules. And from the point of view of a CMAist, trying to outbox a boxer will always put you at a disadvantage.

I'd be more interested in how to drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:45 pm

C.J.W. wrote:While it's nice to analyze a great boxer like Lomachenko, we should also keep in mind that this is an example of "boxing vs. boxing" in the ring, so their movements and responses are greatly limited by the rules. And from the point of view of a CMAist, trying to outbox a boxer will always put you at a disadvantage.

I'd be more interested in how to drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing.


That's true but a lot of boxing translates into mma when it comes to head movement. Once kicking gets involved then the distancing changes and many switch to more upright stances and use stepping to evade & keeping upright. The irony is that cma's low horse stance can be easily linked into boxing head movement especially when paired with with a side kick and when in close straights, overhands, knees & hooks. The problem with many cma guys is the stance is practised too static - it needs to move and change height quickly (baji, xinyi and some others do this).

Have a look at ufc 212 aldo v hollaway. It must hold a record for the most boxing flavored mma fight.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:49 pm

All "western" boxers depend on the opponent being in reach. So, the simple way to deal with one, if one can kick, is to do so. If you can keep outside his range, you're golden. If you can get inside his guard to throw, it will work too. All you have to do is get inside. That means, however, that you have to be in his range. Assuming he or she doesn't hit you while you're there.

It's all theory until that point, cma or not. Of course, the same argument holds if the boxer can kick and wrestle.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:00 pm

RobP3 wrote:Well that's pretty much the standard RMA approach. Training soft vision is an important part of it, which is one reason the Russian styles train in the particular mindset they do. Movement and position are also key


By rma - systema specifically or others like sambo?

I've hardly seen systema but the samboist's I train with also have a heavy focus on regular cardio fitness training & testing in sparring & tournament's. They do a lot of drills with a focus on getting it right and building slowly but every few days it's full on intensity sparring (2/3 day build program which then the off day is filled with stretching and walking - then they repeat). Any similarities?
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:31 pm

C.J.W. wrote:While it's nice to analyze a great boxer like Lomachenko, we should also keep in mind that this is an example of "boxing vs. boxing" in the ring, so their movements and responses are greatly limited by the rules. And from the point of view of a CMAist, trying to outbox a boxer will always put you at a disadvantage.

I'd be more interested in how to drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing.



OH my gosh C.J.W...for peets sake this is all I ever talk about. It's all about the set up (entry), follow... and the hand doesn't come back empty.

From the thread Coordinate your hand with your foot.
...Not everyone likes to bridge and stick with eachother...which is at the very HEART of why allot of Traditional Kung Fu fails vs a more MMA pursuit which usually strikes more WESTERN in nature. I.e. they punch and retract their arm (in order to hit again) very quickly and efficiently.
* You can see when a TMA guy...who is used to dealing with opponents who like to ALSO bridge and stick out there arms >>>>>>> all of the sudden he faces someone who will NOT play his game. This is why you see allot of INEXPERIENCED TMA holding their arms out (reaching out) and not effectively covering themselves vs. a good striker. They are at a loss because they have not learned to deal with it.

Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....



Hence, initially the most obvious way that people would "...drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing." would be to grapple and take him down... duh!

Aside from that aspect of taking a boxer off his feet (which is a proven method)...if you want to fight with him standing up, you have to STOP HIS ABILITY TO PUNCH. One way is to intercept, catch and / or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch. This can be wrapping him up or getting some sort of hand control... at the very least, tying him up some how.

I've been teaching (obsessed) with this problem ever since my experiences in both MMA and my traditional training met head on together. Proper entering strategies and methods for hand control afterwards are what I focus on teaching the most.

Your interest is at the very heart of my practice.

For example in this video at around 40secs:
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:34 pm

I have always believed that "dodging" is more advance skill than "blocking". In the past many years, I don't think that way any more. Why should I dodge your punch? If you punch me, I move in. You either knock me down, or I get the clinch and take you down. You should afraid my take down skill as much as I should afraid your knock down skill. I do believe that a crazy wrestler can be as scary as a crazy boxer.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:42 pm

johnwang wrote:I have always believed that "dodging" is more advance skill than "blocking". In the past many years, I don't think that way any more. Why should I dodge your punch? If you punch me, I move in. You either knock me down, or I get the clinch and take you down. You should afraid my take down skill as much as I should afraid your knock down skill. I do believe that a crazy wrestler can be as scary as a crazy boxer.


+1 to that.... yours is definitely a viable option!

Especially if it falls in line with denying the crazy boxer his chance to punch you. ;D
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:16 pm

Subitai wrote:
johnwang wrote:I have always believed that "dodging" is more advance skill than "blocking". In the past many years, I don't think that way any more. Why should I dodge your punch? If you punch me, I move in. You either knock me down, or I get the clinch and take you down. You should afraid my take down skill as much as I should afraid your knock down skill. I do believe that a crazy wrestler can be as scary as a crazy boxer.


+1 to that.... yours is definitely a viable option!

Especially if it falls in line with denying the crazy boxer his chance to punch you. ;D

A viable option for johnwang. Would you teach the same strategy to a 115 lb. woman against a 225 lb. male attacker?

This is sooo 90's where the Gracies dominated for awhile. Then, the skill level grew to a higher level; having the skills to transition into the various ranges.

One of the top MMA trainers said the future growth in skills will be in the standup game. This is also anti-CMA/IMA :o
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:35 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Subitai wrote:
johnwang wrote:I have always believed that "dodging" is more advance skill than "blocking". In the past many years, I don't think that way any more. Why should I dodge your punch? If you punch me, I move in. You either knock me down, or I get the clinch and take you down. You should afraid my take down skill as much as I should afraid your knock down skill. I do believe that a crazy wrestler can be as scary as a crazy boxer.


+1 to that.... yours is definitely a viable option!

Especially if it falls in line with denying the crazy boxer his chance to punch you. ;D

A viable option for johnwang. Would you teach the same strategy to a 115 lb. woman against a 225 lb. male attacker?

This is sooo 90's where the Gracies dominated for awhile. Then, the skill level grew to a higher level; having the skills to transition into the various ranges.

One of the top MMA trainers said the future growth in skills will be in the standup game. This is also anti-CMA/IMA :o



Funny you should mention that in your last sentence. I wrote a few posts back in 2000 on KFM forum...about how everything had COME FULL CIRCLE. http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... #post28423

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It has come full circle

Kong,
In the beginning of the modern NHB era everyone believed ground fighting was it and they mostly always went down.
Then when the everyone mixed it up and learned different ranges and skills...they had to respect the other man in front of them.
Result = If you look at allot of the recent NHB matches you see allot more stand up out of respect for eachothers abilities.

SO IT HAS COME FULL CIRCLE...
By that I mean, in the beginning people were questioning how come so many TMA were focused on Standup. As if to say nobody in the past had ever considered groundwork.

If you look at allot of pro fighters...they are comfortable on the ground but prefer to stand up because it's more efficient to stay on your feet. NOT that they can't submit on the ground if they want to. It's just what's easier...knocking someone out standing or taking someone down, gaining control and submitting them = it's more work.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby lars on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:54 pm

if you want to fight with him standing up, you have to STOP HIS ABILITY TO PUNCH. One way is to intercept, catch and / or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch.


Definitely spot on. How is your experience with an efficient way of doing this with gloves on or off? Do you change strategies a lot?
It seems quite different to what works, if using gloves, grabbing is a bit more difficult, but there is a bigger "handle"... If bare fist, it opens up for breaking joints, using the "taking the fangs out" approach of smashing the attackers weapons (wrist, elbows, knees)...
Obviously the setting (street or ring) also means a lot on what is possible, so do you drill specifically with different encounters in mind? Or have you found techniques that work best in most situations and drill them for easier and more efficient training?
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:56 am

dspyrido wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Well that's pretty much the standard RMA approach. Training soft vision is an important part of it, which is one reason the Russian styles train in the particular mindset they do. Movement and position are also key


By rma - systema specifically or others like sambo?

I've hardly seen systema but the samboist's I train with also have a heavy focus on regular cardio fitness training & testing in sparring & tournament's. They do a lot of drills with a focus on getting it right and building slowly but every few days it's full on intensity sparring (2/3 day build program which then the off day is filled with stretching and walking - then they repeat). Any similarities?


Yep, depending on particular school of course. Was recently at Vasiliev's school in Toronto, it was an intense experience
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:57 am

johnwang wrote:I'm sure "read" is more than just 'see" or "sense".

I assume "read" is dodge, yield, sticky, soft, follow, ..., the "water" strategy and the opposite of "force against force". For example, you hook punch me, I dodge my head under it and counter with an uppercut.


No, "read" is see what the guy is doing and hit him first, or take whatever action is most appropriate for the situation. It may be that you need to escape, for example.
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby Subitai on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:39 am

lars wrote:
if you want to fight with him standing up, you have to STOP HIS ABILITY TO PUNCH. One way is to intercept, catch and / or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch.


Definitely spot on. How is your experience with an efficient way of doing this with gloves on or off? Do you change strategies a lot?
It seems quite different to what works, if using gloves, grabbing is a bit more difficult, but there is a bigger "handle"... If bare fist, it opens up for breaking joints, using the "taking the fangs out" approach of smashing the attackers weapons (wrist, elbows, knees)...
Obviously the setting (street or ring) also means a lot on what is possible, so do you drill specifically with different encounters in mind? Or have you found techniques that work best in most situations and drill them for easier and more efficient training?


Great observation... (all my replies are in concern with stopping or slowing down retraction)

Well obviously a boxing type glove where the thumb is sewed close to the hand will pretty much take grabbing out of the equation. You can pressure and TYE up though. In San Shou, I used to train with at least 16oz or heavier (I used have have an 18oz set) for conditioning. We would use our forearms to Tye Up opponents arms and move in to grapple or throw (also to catch kicks) But physically stopping a fighter from retracting his arm??? = You really can't do it with these gloves in any reliable manner. He'd just have to be tired is all. :)
- It's a sport glove so it is what it is...
- Negatives are many Grabbing and hand control methods are gone out the window and also your short punching game (i.e. from 10" or less away)


The more modern mma gloves are cool because you still have your fingers open to grab and as you said; the glove itself can be used as a "Bigger Handle" or (bottle neck) to hold onto.
- only negative for me about these gloves ( and I stress for Myself) is that when I use these I tend to loose my short power striking game. That's something that the 2 styles I focus on(Hung Gar and Taiji) utilizes allot; short or inch power. This means I end up striking from a more formal distance ...but that's just me.

---------------------------------------------

I don't work for specific encounters. If we're using sport boxing type gloves...I'm pretty much focused on pad work of some kind or the sport of San shou.

If I'm training for heavy power(on a heavy bag for ex), I'm gonna definitely WRAP my hands 1st, before a bag glove goes over them. People who don't protect their hands properly will experience Knuckle spread and hand damage later on in life...later arthritis probably.

The bulk of my teaching is for bare or empty handed drilling where we can grab and gain hand control or legs. I go by the Gun and Bullet principle. The Gun is your set ups and entries... with out a good gun you cannot shoot. The bullets are your finish moves (strikes that can really hurt). Admittedly, I focus on teaching setup and entries more than anything else now. Teaching someone to generate big power is no problem....getting them to land those big power shots is an art onto itself. Relaxation is so key, that's a whole other topic.

Speaking about a fair fight or match, as in you have the time to size up your opponent:
-As far as techniques or drills before I teach those...people have to recognize body positioning (weight shifts / plants) does he stand forward stance or more reserved? IMO, my opponents footwork or lack of is a HUGE indicator of his skill.
! A boxer with GOOD FOOTWORK makes it very difficult to stop his hands from retracting. It doesn't take allot of exchanges to figure out if he's good either. Other things, is he Orthodox or south paw. Does he have a "tick or Tell". I don't expect to realistically kung fu someone within the 1st 5 secs of a fair fight, that sh!T is for the movies.

Speaking about self defense or if you're surprise attacked...that's a whole other can of worms.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, getting back to your query... you have to find what's comfortable for you.

* If you're a person who likes to intercept...by all means do it, practice it and get good at it. You have to exchange with your opponent so that he gives you something to work with. When he does, you can apply intercept. I think Bruce Lee was smart for stressing JEET or intercept. If you attack someone whilst THEY are attacking you...it's almost always a better entry.
The part people find hard in this is that they try to do it on the 1st beat of time. I.E. you're squared off and a guy is trying to fake or set you up with a Jab = now you have to JEET on that? That's hard to do for some people.
- Peripheral vision, Footwork, body positioning and understanding tendencies is a good way to go from there.
-If you succeed in stopping or slowing down his retraction...it's huge. Because the more one hand retracts = the more the other can strike out.

*If you like to lead the way and set up by attacking, then do all the things that lend itself to that method. If I was an attacker and I wanted to just get hand control...I would attack to get reactions and see (READ) my opponents counters and follow from there. Does he keep his hands in and just dodge with good footwork? Or is he willing to put his arms up in some way to block/ slap or parry my strikes away. I can then decide how I will apply: "the hand doesn't come back empty" :)
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Re: Reading Punches like in the Matrix

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:43 am

It seems to me that the definition of "read" is you attack and I read. If there is no attack then there will be no read. IMO, this is a very conservative attitude. Why do you always have to wait for your opponent's attack? Why don't you attack first and let your opponent to worry about how to read you?

If you train

- "iron palm", you will always beat up on your opponent.
- "iron vest", you will always been beaten up by your opponent.

If you don't want to be punched, you need to punch your opponent. Fighting is just that simple.
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