rojcewiczj wrote:...trying to generate more force from a single major root joint (shoulders and hips)
rojcewiczj wrote:until there is turning in the joints, there is no force being generated. The muscles cause the joints to turn, which generates the force. The more joints that are turning, the greater the force. If we are not training the joints then why do any movement or postures at all? If we are training the joints then why try to avoid the reality of their function in relation to force. Bones transmit force, but without joints turning their is no action at all. Is it not generally accepted that taiji forms and the like are functionally a series of exercises to increase range of motion and strength in the joints, and that the martial application is the application of multiple precise joint rotations?
DeusTrismegistus wrote:rojcewiczj wrote:until there is turning in the joints, there is no force being generated. The muscles cause the joints to turn, which generates the force. The more joints that are turning, the greater the force. If we are not training the joints then why do any movement or postures at all? If we are training the joints then why try to avoid the reality of their function in relation to force. Bones transmit force, but without joints turning their is no action at all. Is it not generally accepted that taiji forms and the like are functionally a series of exercises to increase range of motion and strength in the joints, and that the martial application is the application of multiple precise joint rotations?
Dmitri is right, a joint can't generate force because it can't move by itself. The joint is where two or more bones meet and the muscles change the bones position relative to each other. It is pretty much impossible to move without moving the joints since the bones have to change relative position to generate force which can act outside the body. The force doesn't originate in the joint, and the turning of joints does not generate a force. The force causes the joints to turn. The muscles tension acts on the bones and moves the bones.
The above doesn't mean that the joints aren't trained. The question is what is actually trained. Which I say is connective tissue strength and more importantly the coordination of the joint motion to reduce stress on the joint as much as possible. If you punch something or someone and you feel it in your wrist/elbow/shoulder/back/hip/knee then you have not coordinated the body properly.
oragami_itto wrote:I think you're both right.
From a purely mechanical perspective at least.
Primarily the joints channel the force to the ground and back without letting any of it get caught and damage us.
Secondarily, the force multiplying potential of compound machines that rotate and lever means greater effective force can be produced than by simple direct means. A stiff muscle driven arm arcing down from the shoulder from above the head may deliver far less force than a relaxed arm connected through the joints dropping slightly in a complex series of micro vectors.
I.e by providing mechanical advantage joints generate force.
oragami_itto wrote:Rotation is just a principle of the lever
rojcewiczj wrote:Lately, I have experienced that much unnecessary tension and effort can be spent in trying to generate more force from a single major root joint (shoulders and hips). When shoulder and hip joints stay open and mobile, they form a composite force, analogous to a four wheel drive function. The four major joints relate to each other, assisting and completing the actions of each other, without losing their individual functions.
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