Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:46 am

Not into guns although I've had jobs and military service that required the use and knowledge of them.

Here in Taiwan, recently my bother inlaw's co worker was shot and killed by someone trying to rob the bank that they worked in,
who later killed himself or so they say ;) , when he found he couldn't get away.

My brother in law was there almost at the same place
when it happened luckily he was able to find some cover..
Kind of surprising considering its not easy as I understand it to own a gun here,,,,could be wrong.

Regarding laws...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAXxQBIfH7I

The clip brings out the point that although people say they want something done,
they don't vote for it to be done. It also addresses some of the differences in the US vs other countries.

In this case the system failed, FBI and other checks that were reported about this guy weren't followed up, they didn't follow their own protocols
as reported in the news ....With him, if it wasn't a gun it would have been something else...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:27 am

The argument that gun laws do nothing is moot. Laws don't stop things; they serve as deterrents and they prescribe punishments. There's a law against murder --even a Commandment. Are the laws working? If not, will more laws help? I don't think so.

In this case the system failed, FBI and other checks that were reported about this guy weren't followed up, they didn't follow their own protocols
as reported in the news ....With him, if it wasn't a gun it would have been something else...


Arguing that the "FBI failed" is silly if the conclusion is that "if it wasn't a gun, it would have been something else." The two things aren't connected. The anti-FBI narrative is just a diversion. What should the FBI have done? Prevented him from buying a gun? The gun store owner or the kid's guardians should have prevented that. They knew he was 'troubled,' and he really was. But, what do we do about it? Health care?

Ok, let's profile this kid. List all his characteristics; fatherless, belongs to or attends meetings at X organizations, posts Y type of posts on Youtube and social media, bad at school, extreme interest in guns, pulls wings off butterflies, etc. Then what?

First of all, I think there'd be a long list. Secondly, I think the list would be so broad that --as you pointed out-- it would include too many people who simply weren't threats.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:12 am

The list of Cruz' attributes may be similar enough to other shooters in order to establish a meaningful pattern that could be studied.

Fatherless

Raised by a single mom

Autistic

Problems at school, maybe has a behavioral diagnosis.

Male.

On certain kinds of meds? ritalin, anti-depressants?

How many of the past 50 shooters fit this possible pattern?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:17 am

Steve James wrote:The argument that gun laws do nothing is moot. Laws don't stop things; they serve as deterrents and they prescribe punishments. There's a law against murder --even a Commandment. Are the laws working? If not, will more laws help? I don't think so.

In this case the system failed, FBI and other checks that were reported about this guy weren't followed up, they didn't follow their own protocols
as reported in the news ....With him, if it wasn't a gun it would have been something else...


Arguing that the "FBI failed" is silly if the conclusion is that "if it wasn't a gun, it would have been something else." The two things aren't connected. The anti-FBI narrative is just a diversion. What should the FBI have done? Prevented him from buying a gun? The gun store owner or the kid's guardians should have prevented that. They knew he was 'troubled,' and he really was. But, what do we do about it? Health care?

Ok, let's profile this kid. List all his characteristics; fatherless, belongs to or attends meetings at X organizations, posts Y type of posts on Youtube and social media, bad at school, extreme interest in guns, pulls wings off butterflies, etc. Then what?

First of all, I think there'd be a long list. Secondly, I think the list would be so broad that --as you pointed out-- it would include too many people who simply weren't threats.


Didn't seatbelt laws work?

And the zero tolerance laws on drunk driving in Japan were very effective.

Come to think of it, gun laws in most industrial nations are also very effective when they are strict and strictly enforced.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:18 am

Right. But, then, do we make it a rule that people with those traits should be prohibited from owning firearms?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:19 am

Michael wrote:The list of Cruz' attributes may be similar enough to other shooters in order to establish a meaningful pattern that could be studied.

Fatherless

Raised by a single mom

Autistic

Problems at school, maybe has a behavioral diagnosis.

Male.

On certain kinds of meds? ritalin, anti-depressants?

How many of the past 50 shooters fit this possible pattern?


Gee, you left one out.

What would be easier to tackle? Five or more complex issues which may or may not have varying effects on the likelihood of going on a shooting rampage, or simply eliminating the one clearly unifying factor in mass shootings?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:44 am

Yeah, I thought the fixation on weapons was a given.

You would have to confiscate nearly all guns in civilian hands in the USA to deal with the problem this way and I think that would be more difficult, but even if it could be done, it would not deal with the potential problem besides the guns that underlies these shootings, which are horrible and high profile, but I think the underlying problem is more serious.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:50 am

I do agree that the issues you raise (some at least) very much need to be addressed.

I'm also not sure that things need to be as extreme in terms of gun control. Personally, I'd be happy with uniform common sense gun law reform which is supported by the vast majority of gun owners but opposed by the NRA and gun lobby.

I do recognize the unique problem we face given the Second Amendment and its current interpretation. It's not going to be an easy fix.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:17 am

If there is a pervasive problem, such as a mental health crisis with fatherless boys raised by single moms, then considering how many hundreds of millions of guns are out there I expect there would still be more mass shootings, and each time would require more gun restrictions. I could be wrong, I just think it would lead to confiscation because of the political climate; I think that's what many people really want even if they don't openly admit it.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 am

Michael wrote:If there is a pervasive problem, such as a mental health crisis with fatherless boys raised by single moms, then considering how many hundreds of millions of guns are out there I expect there would still be more mass shootings, and each time would require more gun restrictions. I could be wrong, I just think it would lead to confiscation because of the political climate; I think that's what many people really want even if they don't openly admit it.


I just don't see any reason to believe that being raised by a single mom makes someone a mass shooter. There are a lot of us. Do you know what the divorce rate is?

That argument is trotted out a lot by people like Rush and Tucker when talking about black youth, though. Funny, most of the mass shooters seem to be white.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 pm

So Trump is making moves on bump stocks. Now people can understand why I believe I live in the most ridiculous country in the world. If Obama were doing this people would be crying out for a civil war but a Republican president....nothing.

Funny how that works...
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:41 pm

Ya noticed :) Trump will now call himself the gun control president. At least, he'll say that he's tried harder than Obama.

Anyway, this is the law of unintended consequences. The NRA never expected this. (Um, the NRA organizational leadership, not the membership, btw). At any rate, it's a move that makes sense, even if Trump suggested it. Though, we know for a fact that it wasn't his idea, or that he was the first to suggest it. He's just the only one who could get away with it --because his sheeple will never admit that it's a contradiction, or say that it's a plot to take away their guns. Too bad he isn't really smart, or moral, or interested in women's rights, or in Dreamers, or in anyone who doesn't support him loyally ... er, without question.

Hmmm, just in:
Florida lawmakers ignore call for tougher gun control laws with vote to block bill banning assault rifles

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 20401.html
http://uproxx.com/news/florida-lawmaker ... lt-rifles/

Specifically, they voted against considering a bill, not the bill itself. Ok, I know that FL has a gator, boa and python problem. But, I think they don't want to discuss the bill because then they'll have to come up with their reasons. I think they could come to a reasonable solution if they discussed it.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:56 pm

On top of that the NRA donated $21,000,000 to the Trump campaign.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:22 pm

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:32 pm

Btw, talk about laws and restrictions. In Israel, some would say there's a constant threat and a lot of guns, but is it safe to say that we'd like Israeli gun laws? Here's an example. The rules seem like common sense --even if they were totally made up.

I've noticed several people in my feed mention Israel concerning armed citizens and guns, quoting BS put out by the NRA, so let me set a few things straight. If you want to own a gun in Israel you must consider the following:

1. 40% of applications for firearms permits are rejected. There are only 170,000 active permits currently (population 8.5 million)
2. Only a small group of people are eligible for firearms licenses. Primarily licenses go to high ranking retired military personnel, police officers, prison guards, security guards, and animal control officers. There are a small number of licences for settlers in the West Bank and hunters.
3. You must be at least 21 years old for those who completed military service otherwise you have to wait till you are 27 or 45 for non-citizen residents.
4. Applicants must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years.
5. You must pass an extensive background check (including criminal check, national security check, health exam, and mental health evaluation)
6. You must establish a genuine reason for possessing a firearm. I like guns is not an option. If you say you need a gun for self-defence, you can only have one gun, and you are limited to an annual supply of 50 bullets
7. You have to justify every gun you possess separately. Owning more than two guns is extremely rare.
8. You must pass a multi-week weapons-training course.
9. You have to renew your license and pass a shooting course every three years.
10. You have to undergo a psychological assessment every six years.
11. You must have a safe at your residence in which to keep the firearm.
12. There is 100% VAT on firearms, and you will pay thousands of shekels to qualify for your license and hundreds of shekels each year to keep it.
13. There are enormous legal repercussions should your gun be miss-handled, miss-fire, injure anyone unjustly, or be used in a crime. Even if you are not the one that committed these acts.
14. You are not allowed to sell your gun to anyone but a registered dealer or the police.

In Israel, gun ownership is a privilege, not a right. It is illegal to own an assault rifle. The photo below is not an open carry gun enthusiast. It's an off-duty soldier that has to carry her weapon while in basic training. Know that when you see young Israelis carrying assault rifles, those are soldiers. I have yet to meet a single Israeli that liked doing this. It is basically a punishment. Don't believe what the NRA says. Gun violence and gun death in Israel is low, not because we all have to carry guns in our youth, but because of gun regulation, enforcement, and not breeding a culture of fear around personal protection.
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