hi Ron, I used to think about the imagery becomes reality too. That part came from my yang style teacher as he also was a student of t t liang. What I have found though is that it is not true. It's just one of those things where there is no solid foundation to the information. So everything is just built on speculation which of course we all know is one error on top of another error.Ron Panunto wrote:Thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts on the this topic. The topic was particularly annoying to me in that I was (and still am) doing the microcosmic orbit training without really believing in the "qi" paradigm. My thoughts about the practice are more in line with what T.T. Liang called "Imagination Becomes Reality" and the late posts on Autonomic Training. The point being that intention can have a dramatic effect on the physical body.
Graham B - the video from CZL was right on point. I learned CZL's short form and traditional spear directly from him, but during those times he never spoke of the orbit. In the video he indicated that most folks have some sort of realization, feeling, or enlightenment when the qi passes through the Jade Pillow sticking point. You see, I have been practicing for decades and have never felt anything out of the ordinary. What I gather now is that I shouln't seek a goal, but to just let it happen, and if it happens, that's fine, and if it doesn't, then too bad. My problem is that I'm an engineer by trade and so I am a goal oriented type and it's hard for me to just "let things happen."
In the past few years I have made considerable progress using dantian rotation to store energy in the lumbar spine with a reverse breathing inhale and then to release it in an explosive and guttural exhale to fajin. The problem is that it's getting to feel so good that I can't stop fajinning the postures in my Yang forms.
So thanks again to everyone who responded because now I know I'm on the right track and I'm feeling REAL GOOD!
willie wrote:Very interesting that you are using Dantian powered fajin in yang style, I would love to see a video of that.
Ron Panunto wrote:willie wrote:Very interesting that you are using Dantian powered fajin in yang style, I would love to see a video of that.
I think that eventually most long time practitioners have to define their own martial art. Mine is morphing into a combination of Yang and Chen Taiji with Xingyi. Take the Yang Simplified 24 Style, which I now do instead of the various Yang long forms that I learned. I have replaced the left heel kick with a rising instep kick (separate legs) because there was none in the form. I replaced the side to side stepping in "wave hands like clouds" with the back stepping done in Chen Xinjia, I added Xingyi stepping to the two "fairly works at shuttles," and replaced "step up, deflect downward, parry and punch with Xingyi's dragon and beng chuan. Sprinkled throughout the form, I fajin when I feel that I have to release the energy that gets stored up through the form - it's almost like you have to cum when sufficiently aroused (pretend that I never said that).
I didn't do this on purpose, but at this point in my progress, "it seemed like the right thing to do."
As far as a video, at my age I have virtually no computer gong fu, so I would have no idea how to film and post a video to the forum, you would have to speak to one of my granddaughters.
voidisyinyang wrote:The yuan qi is actually the Zhong Gong - behind the navel - not below the navel. So that is the real lower tan t'ien....
Robert Peng teaching microcosmic orbit - along with martial arts training - hard qigong demonstration energy
Giles wrote:Guys, just for the sake of clarity it would be better in English to use the terms "abdomen" or "belly" when talking about the general area between the diaphragm and the pelvic floor...
...
The stomach is where your breakfast lands after descending through the oesophagus. Trying to generate physical power from here will probably just result in indigestion and other discomfort.
Bao wrote:Stumbled on this. Due to all of the the "not internal enough" accusations, it's funny to hear a Chen Master, Chen Zhenglei, speaking the absolute truth about micro and macro circulation. He says it all much, much better than any other public teacher I've heard. I've read and heard what Yang Jwing-Ming, Bruce Franzis and a whole lot of other qi-speakers have to say about this issue. But this Mr Chen says it so much better and absolutely what every Tai Chi practitioner who deals with this micro-stuff needs to hear. He explains why and how it comes naturally from Tai Chi practice and why you should not chase it. I have a whole lot of respect for this gent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUtD_iWZLU
voidisyinyang wrote:There are different levels of microcosmic orbit. For example I was doing this while driving today. You keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth. Then you do deep reverse breathing. As the qi goes up to the pineal gland then the cerebrospinal fluid overflows out of the sinus cavity and you swallow this - with the tongue against the roof of the mouth. So as the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality teaches - this is the best way to increase the yin qi energy.
Ron Panunto wrote:Thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts on the this topic. The topic was particularly annoying to me in that I was (and still am) doing the microcosmic orbit training without really believing in the "qi" paradigm. My thoughts about the practice are more in line with what T.T. Liang called "Imagination Becomes Reality" and the late posts on Autonomic Training. The point being that intention can have a dramatic effect on the physical body.
Graham B - the video from CZL was right on point. I learned CZL's short form and traditional spear directly from him, but during those times he never spoke of the orbit. In the video he indicated that most folks have some sort of realization, feeling, or enlightenment when the qi passes through the Jade Pillow sticking point. You see, I have been practicing for decades and have never felt anything out of the ordinary. What I gather now is that I shouln't seek a goal, but to just let it happen, and if it happens, that's fine, and if it doesn't, then too bad. My problem is that I'm an engineer by trade and so I am a goal oriented type and it's hard for me to just "let things happen."
What I also learned from this discussion is that the microcosmic orbit can be considered a group of physical processes performed in an interdependent and consistent way, including, but not limited to, inhalation/exhalation linked to opening/closing linked to store/release linked to dantain rotation linked to a mental imagery of circulating energy. This fits more easily into my thinking and gets rid of the woo-woo stuff.
It seems that the majority of the posters were saying the same thing, but coming from different points of view. My task now is to learn to appreciate these different points of view and to try to consolidate them into a practice that works for me. In the past few years I have made considerable progress using dantian rotation to store energy in the lumbar spine with a reverse breathing inhale and then to release it in an explosive and guttural exhale to fajin. The problem is that it's getting to feel so good that I can't stop fajinning the postures in my Yang forms.
So thanks again to everyone who responded because now I know I'm on the right track and I'm feeling REAL GOOD!
jaime_g wrote:This is the physical skill I was talking about, regarding dantian.
How long did it take for your body to adapt to Dai shen fa, meaning where your physical dan tian was distinguishably separate from the other part of the stomach and could noticeably roll?
3 years practicing Dun hou shi and 2 years practicing Bufa
Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 73 guests