windwalker wrote:LaoDan wrote:I was hoping that asking someone, who makes claims of understanding this phenomenon, might help me to also understand it.
you mean agee with, not understand...to understand it you would know, knowing comes from experience which you do not have...and yet are unable to even comprehend the basic assumptions that its based on
LaoDan wrote:
but for now what I have experienced is insufficient to interest me in studying kongjin. So what I felt/experienced, in person, is not what you expected me to experience from one of the proponents that you seem to think has skill in the approach that you advocate. He has probably gotten better in the past 6 years, but his skill at the time did not impress me.
The Yang family particularly Yang Chienhou kept their treasure close to the chest. When Yang Chienhou was
teaching in the 4th Prince's dwelling it was said that any discussion of the art with his son, Yang Shaohou
was carried out when there were no outsiders around and they talked in a hushed manner, never writing
anything in ink, but using water to write out the strokes of the Chinese characters so that no record remained
after the water dried out.
Due to the 4th Prince's generosity and sincerity Yang Chienhou imparted certain information and skills to
him. However, the Yang family didn't exactly become wealthy from teaching Tai Chi Chuan to the Prince. On
the contrary, they were still far from financially well off.
Wang Chonglu, the father of Wang Yongquan, was the chief steward in the Prince's dwelling and took an
interest in the Yang's art.
The friend persisted. Some two years later a reluctant Master Wei stood before Master Wang who was sitting
down in a rattan chair. Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face. Master Wang waved
Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers. Master Wang
grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible
to fajing him in this manner.
In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected
this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what
Master Wang just demonstrated on him. So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had
learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.
One could make the argument that in taiji, the arms are not used, the whole body is the hand..
we use what I call yi peng,,,,meaning that you have the idea of a sphere but its one in your mind that changes as needed.
Your both right,,only in different ways, its a matter of level and what ones teachers level was.
4 levels,,,
bone (use of structure)
skin (use of mind)
hair (much higher level)
air ( BTD material)
many people develop and stop at the idea of structure, which means that their push hands is based on feeling the bone, or muscle movement / pressure....in these types of practices people practice to see how much force their structure can support, this is okay as long as they can really empty themselves which most can not do....because their practice is based on a body level of awareness.
The most common error of this group is to use their structure to over come the other, which leads to force on force.
Those that practice with a mind level (skin) they will feel very soft and light,,,their reactions are based on really feeling the emptiness and fullness of ones intent..this means that they rely on the mind, but must have passed through the understanding and usage of the first level. Those that use the skin level,,will tend to not have any direct lines of force,,as what there pushing or working with is the others mind through the medium of skin contact..they will feel very light and have the ability to unbalance or steal ones balance at first touch...
The most common error of this group is one of collapsing,,they intuitively understand what to do, but their body has not really been trained to follow their minds yet,
style, teacher, ones own depth of skill and experience all play into the understanding of this,,,we can say the proof is in the pudding as they say,,,the problem with this is that if ones skill level is not deep enough or developed enough,,its very easy to get caught into thinking that the beginning level of development is the last level of achievement., wind walker
For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand. I have found that sometimes high level understanding in a subject can prevent one from knowing it.....a little different then understanding it.
This essay ends with Prof. Cheng saying, “This treatise reveals the secret of many generations of T’ai Chi Ch’uan masters. I hope the practitioner will pay special attention to this!” He evidently considered this essay, which deals in part with neutralization, to be very important and chose to use physics as the main expository tool.
windwalker wrote:
A phd level physicist who outlines some of the things I noted.
He does not seem to go far enough with it publicly
The image is a good start to understand about things out side the body, the how, why and what...For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand. I have found that sometimes high level understanding in a subject can prevent one from knowing it.....a little different then understanding it.
This essay ends with Prof. Cheng saying, “This treatise reveals the secret of many generations of T’ai Chi Ch’uan masters. I hope the practitioner will pay special attention to this!” He evidently considered this essay, which deals in part with neutralization, to be very important and chose to use physics as the main expository tool.
https://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html
windwalker wrote:
Interesting to note that Master Wei was a chen style master who felt he had attained a high level of skill in
it.
LaoDan wrote:WW,
I am finding you a bit difficult to follow. First, someone who understands scientific principles should be able to understand what you practice. But I do understand science." However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand" . So did he, he couldn't understand it because he didnt know it
Then, perhaps, one needs to experience the effects of kongjin training, like by experiencing PH with Zhao, before one will understand it. But when I point out that I have had experience with Zhao, then you claim that, what, I do not understand it because I am stuck having too scientific a mindset and do not really have the required belief in qi? kong jin, is part of a much larger approach no belief required, experience yes, belief no .
I do not believe that the kongjin approach works because it failed to work against my approach. No “belief” required!
The approach is not specifically just to develop kong jin. Why do you feel a need to insist that it such.
Do you use the "Peng jin" approach ?
Zhao attributed our differences in opinion to me having a background in both Yang and Chen styles (rather than strictly Yang style). He also appeared to lack my understanding that if one has yin on one side of the point of contact while having yang on the other side (like for a rotating ball), then the level of force/pressure, at the point of contact, may not really matter. I felt that he was advocating a yin on both sides approach that I understand to lack pengjin (allowing one to be struck due to collapsing the “ball”, and losing the defensive “ball” as illustrated in your reference to Chuckrow’s information).
You description of pung jin, I would not agree with...I can understand what Zhao might have been trying to express. Interesting we seem to have a different view point of what Chuckrow, information means.
My approach appeared to work against him, while his did not appear to work against mine. It probably works against many other approaches, but...
Perhaps he has a different perspective on our encounter (if he remembers it). Or perhaps if I had tried to follow his instructions and tried to use less force, then perhaps he could have gotten it to work against me?Or he was in what i call teacher mode,,,and not really trying to do anything...hard to say...It seemed like he was trying to teach you something, not do something....BTDT, sometimes with those I meet...Who like you may not be able to tell the difference between something that is being taught, and something that is being used....
.Don't like push hands, its an exercise used to develop or test certain concepts or skill sets among those working on the same skill sets
Perhaps both approaches work, I do not know, but Zhao’s approach does not seem to be right for me.
wayne hansen wrote:I don't push with many people these days
On first touch I can tell if there is anything to gain from the confrontation
Softness has little to do with empty force
I just don't wish to carry someone's tension
I think it funny that the one who is promoting empty force here states that his base art is hop gar
If there is a path to empty force it would seem to me to be further into the internal not reverting to the external
I have seen empty force use many times
Not in a static way but as part of highly developed pushing hands
It is much like aikidos throwless throw
Just good mechanics in the midst of high level full on pushing hands
It is interesting that the students of these empty force masters never attack or neutralise in pushing with their teachers
It also interesting that they don't take on outside opponents
wayne hansen wrote:I know all external arts have internal training
What I refer to is the external mechanics
In recent years all the arts that deride tai chi for its martial shortcomings seem to be claiming its methodology
I think there may be some confusion about this
"Others countered that it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan, so it should be included as part of the Internal Division. Master Wu Tunan did not concur.
He felt that Chen Style should be treated as an external style, similar to Shaolin.
Someone turned to Chen Fake, Master Chen, you are the standard bearer of the Chen Family, is it external or internal?
Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external! We did not have this distinction at home.
It just amuses me that those who make claims for empty force have any need for anything outside tai chi
We did not have this distinction at home
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