The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby RobP3 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:01 am

Regarding the measurement of strikes, this is what some guys in the UK have been doing. I've not seen it so have no opinion one way or the other, but these are some of the results

http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/systema/

http://www.strike-research.org/pages/p_data/Scaleofhumanforce141117.pdf

http://www.strike-research.org/?p=p_data

As far as foot first, etc, for us the footwork is more a question of positioning, power can be generated purely from the arm if neccssary. Though I agree about the need for co oordination.
Last edited by RobP3 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:58 am

I think he's a good puncher :). He studied Dempsey very closely, and his footwork could be called the "D'Amato shuffle." But, I think that what makes his punches powerful is that he puts his body into every punch --yet remains stable enough to avoid going off balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2rpfX7Gi6Y
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:52 am

RobP3 wrote:Regarding the measurement of strikes, this is what some guys in the UK have been doing. I've not seen it so have no opinion one way or the other, but these are some of the results

http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/systema/

http://www.strike-research.org/pages/p_data/Scaleofhumanforce141117.pdf

http://www.strike-research.org/?p=p_data

As far as foot first, etc, for us the footwork is more a question of positioning, power can be generated purely from the arm if neccssary. Though I agree about the need for co oordination.

Image

On November 24, 2017, Francis Ngannou sets world record for punching power with his rear hand punch measured at 129,161 franklins (f).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiIDg5k1Y-U
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:49 am

Longhorn Sheep ?
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby klonk on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:15 pm

Trick wrote:
klonk wrote:
As to foot arriving first, I tend not to do that, but it isn't a terrible idea. Karate is full of punches done that way, you get grounded and drive your punches from a very solid but momentarily immobile stance. I have in the past likened these punches to firing artillery from a mount fasted firmly to the ground. Doing it that way loses a brief instant of time, but it is very stable.

In each case, you need to avoid being foot-swept as you advance, but that is a problem shared by all three possible timings of the advance.

If I remember right you where into Shotokan-Karate ? so where I, my favorite strikes where Kizami tsuki and nagashi tsuki ( lead/jab punch & flowing punch) which do not make use of the two foot rooted stance, they worke great in sparring. http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateun ... age17.html


Yes, but it was years ago. I have occasionally thought of getting back into it because it is an excellent workout. However, I think karate has a bunkai problem, lots of people involved have beautiful movement but not a lot of certainty about when or why some of the movements would be useful... Aaaaand that is a consequence of defining an art in terms of its kata. I still have great respect for the art, and the Shotokan work ethic is very admirable.

As you note, not all of karate consists of gun platform punches. But those are common enough and familiar enough that they seemed like good examples to mention. Kizimi and nagashi, and I would include in that also gyaku tzuki when begun with a step of the forward foot, use the power of stepping to excellent effect, but they belong to a different order of things and lead one back to Master Wang's question of the timing of foot and hand.
Last edited by klonk on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:40 pm

I usually coordinate my strikes with my stepping. I feel that it adds a great amount of power to my strikes, is more stable and difficult to resist and it leaves less margin for error. If you step first and then punch it's easier to get attacked before you finish it. If you punch before you step there is a lot less power, though there may be more speed. That is why in certain instances my hands lead.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:41 pm

Trick wrote:Longhorn Sheep ?

:P
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:03 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:If you step first and then punch it's easier to get attacked before you finish it.

The speed is the issue. If there is 1/10 second delay between your foot landing and your punch, your opponent's body may have moved back 6 inches and your punch will fail.

In fighting, you will never move like this. So why train this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpDm0EB ... e=youtu.be
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby klonk on Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:40 pm

Returning to the vicinity in which muttons were last seen, I think JW is right on this point: You can simplify your approach to stepping punches if you adopt just one timing. "Lightning and thunder arrive together" is a maxim that says that the foot grounds along with the fist's arrival. It is a good maxim. I think it is better still to think of the matter as something like a limit function, with the arrival of the foot being the last instant in the domain. Infinitesimally early ('no later than') is still good. Either way, the idea is that the weight transfer has been fully committed by the time the fist arrives.

Having just one idea about this can only be beneficial if you are trying to work out intricate combinations. The only quibble I can think of is that when you throw a feint, generally you want the fist in motion without the body backing it up. You want your body to get moving in another direction, or with a different timing than the apparent one.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:13 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:"What's your thought on" my reply to your same question here?

I have tried all 3 different ways

1. before,
2. during, and
3. after.

I can generate more power by using method 2 (from the sound come back from my striking dummy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f8GDD4 ... e=youtu.be

Thanks for posting the video.

Is your rear hand punch "during your foot landing" or "after your foot landing?" It appears your rear hand is punching "after your foot landing."

Are you comparing the sound of different punches: front hand and rear hand?
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:Is your rear hand punch "during your foot landing" or "after your foot landing?" It appears your rear hand is punching "after your foot landing." Are you comparing the sound of different punches front hand and rear hand?

I can't say that my hand and foot are coordinated 100%. But at least I try to coordinate it as much as possible.

- The long fist training is foot land first and punch after.
- The Baji training is foot landing and punch at the same time.

Since long fist is my primary art, I may still carry some long fist habit into my Baji training.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:24 pm

https://youtu.be/Q2J3eW1BlAg

Fencing has a lot of interesting stepping patterns and foot work. Very similar to Northern Mantis, used for I would imagine the same reasons as praying mantis, covering distance and speed.

Mantis stepping is very quick covering a lot of distance in what seems like the blink of an eye.

Had the opportunity to study with 3 Northern mantis teachers, all extremely quick. 7*, 8-steps and plum flower mantis.

Plum flower, the movement not as direct as the others..

They have a stance called mountain climbing stance used with a type of lunge movement for entering and stepping.. very quick.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:30 pm

The preying mantis "monkey stance" use foot landing and striking at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN7gP3J ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:35 pm

johnwang wrote:The preying mantis "monkey stance" use foot landing and strike at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN7gP3J ... e=youtu.be


Yes, teacher Brendan Lai, was very quick useing this. I was thinking more along the lines of what some call crushing step used in bong bo.

Bruce Lee, was said to have use fencing as his model of stepping for entering
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:59 pm

Do you step every time you punch?
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