Interloper wrote:I think that it stops being counterintuitive when the context is understood. It's not that force is being abandoned; there's force happening. What is abandoned is muscling in the arms, shoulders and upper back, while supportive structure is created in the arms (and body) by a mechanical manipulation of specific muscles and tissues, not in the arms, which allows you to use your arms as a conduit for force generated elsewhere in the body, rather than as force generators themselves. Interesting, he specifically says this is not how he does it00:17
so the idea is that you abandon force
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now
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force means leave okay there's still a
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kind of power but that power comes from
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abandoning leave now most people don't
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want to believe it they think you have a
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hidden li inside the body
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you suddenly contract you relax here but
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you're stiff there or something like
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that so this is one of the blocks that
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makes you not develop you must have
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faith in abandoning Li so we do the
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drill like he's going to try me and the
So, you can be light at the point of contact, yet still be able to both receive and redirect your partner's force through your arms and body, and deliver force through your body and arms to the point of contact.
oragami_itto wrote:So difficult and counterintuitive, but the only way this stuff actually works.
Interloper wrote:windwalker,
It's semantics. He is not "abandoning force," he is abandoning muscling to the point of contact. Everything else he's doing in his body is generating force, and his arms (or wherever he makes the point of contact) are relaxed and structurally supported by other mechanisms in his body... so they don't have to generate force themselves to "push" a person away.
windwalker wrote:Interloper wrote:windwalker,
It's semantics. He is not "abandoning force," he is abandoning muscling to the point of contact. Everything else he's doing in his body is generating force, and his arms (or wherever he makes the point of contact) are relaxed and structurally supported by other mechanisms in his body... so they don't have to generate force themselves to "push" a person away.
I'm not the one you have to convince although I dont agree with what you posted earlier or now. Just pointing out what he "said" is happening is not what you feel is happening, he specifically addressed that point. In most cases he's not pushing someone away, I would bet if you asked most of them they would say they didn't feel anything and dont quite understand how or why they move.
What I use in my own work is a "wave"
Which for most would be counter intuitive until one is able to as some might say separate yin from the yang, or separate
their body from the energy that moves through it.
"In physics, a wave is a disturbance that transfers energy through matter or space, with little or no associated mass transport"
which for me answers most if not all questions of whats being done, how its being done, and why people react the way they do when they encounter it.
This is what I work on, with, and view things through....
Using a wave is counterintuitive for most people, in the medium that the body operates in it's not really designed to be used in such a way.
While I don't agree with his explanations, its his way of explaining what he feels he's doing.
This teacher mentions another method and seems to view some of what adam talks about as a beginning level of understanding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocPQu4llncQ
He talks in terms of mechanics and gears, also something I would not agree with, others might.
by Interloper on Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:50 pm
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't need to "convince" anyone. I can demonstrate what he is doing, and explain the mechanics of it. "Internals" are not mysterious magic; the human body and its ability to move are finite, and he is not doing anything new or different than hundreds of taiji- and other internal artists have done before him. Just because you may not know how he is doing what he does, doesn't mean others can't or don't know, either.
Steve James wrote:I think one can "abandon" force semantically, but not physically. In tcc, it's clear that the admonition is to "use qi not li," but that's a concept. The body needs to exert force/strength/effort to work. In terms of tactical application, one of my old teachers preferred to say "don't struggle." That concept worked for me conceptually and practically. So, I agree with the idea of abandoning force, but don't believe it's literally possible in the physical sense.
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