D_Glenn wrote:In a nutshell- in a normal strike/punch (chongji li), the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh that’s attached to the bones of the arm, shoulder, and torso, so at the point of contact it’s only the bones that hit, as once the flesh catches up, the opponent has already moved away or the hand is already being pulled back.
D_Glenn wrote:In a strike using fajin there is a simultaneous abrupt movement of the Dantian (waist, abdomen, tailbone and lumbar spine) that starts the flesh moving from the torso up through the shoulder out the arm and down to the hand, this results in the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time.
D_Glenn wrote:Just watch high speed videos (1000fps or higher), of people punching bags and such. They’re using chongji li. I doubt that there’s any of someone doing it using a proper fajin but there probably will be some coming down the pipeline.
D_Glenn wrote:Please read my reply more carefully.
A) I said there are likely no videos of xingyi, or anyone doing a proper fajin, while being filmed with a high speed camera that takes images at more than one thousand frames per second.
D_Glenn wrote:B) refer back to my in a nutshell description, as per the biomechanics of a fajin I have numerous posts on here. Just search this site for “Bolangjin”.
marvin8 wrote:I appreciate your explanations. However, you are making conclusions/statements without saying how you derived them. I don't believe you answered the questions:
Can you explain how or why "the bones of the hand move faster than the flesh" and "it’s only the bones that hit" in the boxing punch and tai chi twist step?
What do you mean by "there probably will be some coming down the pipeline?"
Can you explain (e.g., biomechanically, etc.) "what makes this bengquan vastly more effective than boxing" or tai chi's twist step? What do you mean by "vastly more effective?" How did you conclude this?
What evidence do you have that "the bones and the flesh hitting the opponent at the same time" occur with bengquan, but not with boxing's straight or tai chi's twist step?
D_Glenn wrote:C) the only evidence is what you see when someone does a proper fajin. It doesn’t have to be bq. I practice Baguazhang and I can do it in every technique I do, a 100+ different strikes. The feeling of the movement of your own flesh coordinating/ or not harmonizing with the movement of the bones is how you learn- by getting the immediate feedback on whether it’s making its way out to the point of contact. That also leads into short power (pulse) or long power ( a wave); hard power (the flesh is kept taut, or soft ( the flesh is left relaxed.
D_Glenn wrote:There’s a saying, it’s about hard/ external stiyles (of which boxing is a prime example) versus Internal styles of martial arts: ‘a hard style has relatively easier strikes to learn. The power mechanisms are self intuitive. Power will come easy but it relies on the raw physical strength of youth. Internal arts have strikes/ techniques that are very difficult to learn and even harder to get power in, but once learned, the power will steadily increase throughout one’s whole lifetime.’
marvin8 wrote:Here is a previous RSF post stating the same about the kinetic chain,
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 0dc8553210:C.J.W. wrote:There are actually several dissertations on the biomechanics of Taiji and whole-body power in CIMA published by sports scientists in Taiwan that prove fajin is indeed sequential beginning from the feet all the way up to the hands, or moving in a "kinetic chain," as they call it. So there's really no point in debating who's right here.
Using the body as a whip is not slow at all; on the contrary, when done right, it is extremely fast. Tongbei and Pigua are two arts that overtly make use of the long, extended, sequential "whipping" body method, and also known for having lightening fast strikes and footwork.
D_Glenn wrote:I’m using a phone to post on here, which is difficult to navigate, so let me just focus on one thing at a time. Back to the what I’m saying- I’m talking only about a high speed video. It has to be high speed. 1000 fps or higher. And they’re not really about punching bags but seeing the effects of punching someone’s face or other part of the body. The videos so far, seem to be more concerned with what’s happening in the face and less about the arm that is punching. I’m by no means certain, but I think that someday the Chinese will get around to filming someone doing fajin with a high speed camera.
marvin8 wrote: I am asking about seeing the effects on an opponent or punching bag, not the one doing the bengquan.
dspyrido wrote:There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.
Coming back to the question:
What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?
One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching back is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.
So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.
When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.
dspyrido wrote:There's subtle differences but it's not easy to explain so it's almost begging for ... why bother.
dspyrido wrote:Coming back to the question:
What makes Bengquan different to a straight punch?
One difference that can be seen but can't be done on a punching back is the pull back motion of beng. It's a grab and pull back.
So far everyone here is taking about beng as punch to the body or something that helps train coordination. It's that but also has chinna baked in it.
When the lead arm grabs and pulls back the striking arm can also pass the opponents potentially extended elbow, impact it to jar it while on the way to the torso. There's many other subtle applications of beng like this.
marvin8 wrote:This is not much of a difference, as the straight can be preceded by a jab or hand trap (pull down guard in boxing or MMA). MMA (an easier example to analyze fighting) has fighters/trainers with experience in Wing Chun, tai chi, etc. MMA does use trapping, hand fighting, grabbing, hand control, etc.
Many times a feint and hit using the opponent's momentum (e.g., walking in) is more effective (e.g., timing, efficient, avoid counters, distance, etc.) than a pull or grab. GrahamB posted a video with Paul talking about some of the problems with bengquan. Also, Trick's posted video showed the Xingyi player demo pulling and grabbing but did not use it in sparring.
The punching bag can be swung to create incoming force/momentum.
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