Steve James wrote:Here's an interesting Greco - Roman match that illustrates several issues from some other threads. The only thing that interests me here is how I could identify (or differentiate) the tcc energies in examples like this
BruceP wrote:Steve James wrote:Here's an interesting Greco - Roman match that illustrates several issues from some other threads. The only thing that interests me here is how I could identify (or differentiate) the tcc energies in examples like this
The most glaring examples show up at certain times during the match;
At 3:08, the Cuban applies Shuck/Pull-down and again at 3:40
At 6:14, the Cuban applies Ward-off, and again at 6:28.
At 6:46, the Turk applies Push transitioning to Shoulder-Strike followed by Pull-Down. The Cuban is very reserved with his forward pressure throughout the match and it's one of the only times that he over-extends enough that the Turk has the opportunity to apply Pull-Down.
At 7:06, the Turk applies his own Ward-Off
At 8:28 both men lock up with Press
Elbow and Roll-Back are prevalent throughout the match, but the G-R format doesn't allow enough use of legs to create opportunities for Split to be applied.
Steve James wrote:
Okay, so you're arguing that these things are not unique to tcc.
Steve James wrote:Therefore, there's no need for a push hands tournament
That conclusion doesn't necessarily follow the above statement. Greco-Roman wrestling is what it is and tjq is what it is.
TJQ applies the ideas/energies according to a specific set of principles and methods. Competition that is engaged for the sake of winning often draws the competitor away from the integrity of those principles and methods.
Steve James wrote:
From your perspective, they are ideas that can be applied to all movements. I don't disagree, but the debate about whether the tcc jin are comparable to the forces used in modern athletics is by no means agreed upon by the tcc community. That's why I asked the question
Steve James wrote:You write that competition draws the participant away from the principles, yet are able to identify those principles in a Greco Roman match. I'd argue that tcc practitioners might benefit from competing against Greco Roman matches, and vice versa. It's a much bigger world
Steve James wrote:Imo, tcc martial artists must compete again other martial arts and artists. Not that I think competition is necessary at all. I'm just saying that if one wants to compete in a context, one needs to practice against that context.
johnwang wrote:
After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.
BruceP wrote:johnwang wrote:
After this many years, we should accept that the Taiji combat training was long gone.
Maybe it was never really there. Maybe it was all 'supplemented' according to context. Maybe it was so sublime that it went unnoticed.
Steve James wrote:From the 2018 rules.Permitted techniques
Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Kao & Zhou (forearm only not point of elbow).
No points are awarded if the opponent is brought off balance with other techniques.Offences
In all pushing hands events, it is not permitted to:
• Attack the crotch, or hit the head, neck or throat.
• Attack with the elbow, knee or stretched fingers (knife hand).
• Punch, kick, bite, spit, pull hair or clothing.
• Apply a sustained lock to a joint for any period of time or with the use of force or in any way except as transition through a recognised technique
• Precede a push with a blow or thump.
• Grasp or pick up the legs.
• Attack the joints.
• Kick
• Use over head or back throws.
• Attack after the referee has stopped the match.
• Offer dissent with or without rough language.
• Purposely press on the breasts (ladies).
Steve James wrote:
Anyway, my main point was that it's not unexpected that a pushing competition will look like wrestling. I.e., it will not look like what people expect of tcc. That's how it is, though it may change.
You write that competition draws the participant away from the principles, yet are able to identify those principles in a Greco Roman match. I'd argue that tcc practitioners might benefit from competing against Greco Roman matches, and vice versa. It's a much bigger world. I don't think they will receive much credit in the tcc community (or the communities that talk about tcc) precisely because it will "look like wrestling" or "look like kickboxing."
Up front, I don't believe in "tcc" or "push hands" competitions at all. Imo, tcc martial artists must compete again other martial arts and artists. Not that I think competition is necessary at all. I'm just saying that if one wants to compete in a context, one needs to practice against that context. Tcc tournaments just seem to be a way to avoid general competition. Hence, many supposed representatives of tcc look like they don't know anything. As I said, those who are successful are often derided because they weren't doing tcc.
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