everything wrote:marvin8 wrote:everything wrote:Almost all sports do this. As I often say. Taijiquan grasp sparrow's tail basic exercise does seem to help. Here is a double weighting that I want to cause. No touch force!everything wrote:Lots of "soft" and grappling arts have this idea, but don't seem to go as crazy trying to emphasize it. You have to go through a period of learning by trial and error and using force against force until your body realizes that's not as efficient. In some ways that's probably a much better way than being idealistic from the start.
Sports and arts do emphasize it. Messi does not just learn through "trial and error and using force against force." "No touch force" is not "force against force." Messi couldn't do what he does at 80% full sprint without specific training.
Messi's training includes drilling Outside/Inside cut (e.g., balance, alignment, etc), proprioception and balance exercises (e.g., balance ball, bosu ball, agility exercises, etc.), reading and timing the opponent (e.g., opponent shows shoulder, balance, weight shift, etc.), etc.
It's not just a theory or words. It's an important concept that is emphasized, drilled and used against non-compliant opponents.
I think that's true, but Messi didn't go around with this "double weighted" theory to develop this ability.
Messi was taught how to get opponents out of position with footwork (e.g., outside/inside cut, etc), balance, alignment, change of direction, etc.
everything wrote:The "force against force" I'm talking about is in beginner MA but also at Olympic level (through observation). If you push, I also sometimes push, and same with pull. After a while, you start to realize "if you push, I pull" works much more easily. They do say that in judo, but they don't go crazy with "double weighting" lectures. In grasp sparrow's tail (cooperative), you are seeking the right quality all the time. In judo they allow you to try in randori and start to learn for yourself.
Judo is based on kuzushi, borrow opponents force, etc. Good judo instructors teach judo principles, strategies, etc, rather than "learn for yourself."
everything wrote:Sometimes you can do the double weighting if you feel like it. Of course in a sport setting where you are required to take initiative (vs. in taijiquan theory if your opponent does not move, you do not move), sometimes you're going to use some force vs. force and it might be a good idea.
Sometimes you lure, asking hand or give resistance to set up an opponent. Then, change direction and use opponent's force against himself.
everything wrote:Marcelo Garcia in open weight submission grappling is probably a much better example. He can't afford to have double weighting. He'll get crushed. But I don't think BJJ lectures people about that. ?
BJJ teaches position before submission, leverage, etc, not force against force.