BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

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BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:20 am

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Published on Jan 1, 2019

#Aikido In this Break Down video I sit down with my BJJ coaches to take a look at Lenny Sly's of Rogue Warriors "Aikido Pressure Testing - Kotegaeshi" video. Lenny Sly and his youtube channel The Rogue Warriors is one of the most known figures of Aikido online. While me and Lenny have different points of view, we also know each other personally and support each others work. This video was approved by Lenny Sly himself to promote open communication, being open to other people's feedback and growing together. Huge respect to Lenny Sly for that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vGI5YNt_rk
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby everything on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:04 am

Neat idea. JKD from 80s hmm.

Fedor used trapping range as we've talked about before.

It just took fractions of a second. Not a full second.

Good for the aikido guy to be open to criticism.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:57 am

"As soon as the UFC came out, they realized that trapping range does not exist...it's not trained in MMA because it doesn't exist."

Sounds exactly like something a BJJ/MMA guy would say, huh? ;)

IMO, I wouldn't write off trapping that fast; it can still be quite useful in setting up strikes, throws, and takedowns in certain scenarios.

But I do agree that back in the days a lot of JKD guys focused too much on trapping. If it's all you know and do, then you'll be in a world of hurt when going up against people who can hit AND grapple.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Subitai on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:56 am

I cannot fully comment right now ( cause I didn't watch the video yet) But I just skimmed through the posts cause I'm in a hurry but:

"SOME" form or trapping and I use that loosely...is possible in UFC, when you are against a cage fence with your opponent for example (in a clinch) and the movement becomes interrupted and cramped together.

....on my way out
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:07 pm

C.J.W. wrote:IMO, I wouldn't write off trapping that fast; it can still be quite useful in setting up strikes, throws, and takedowns in certain scenarios.

But I do agree that back in the days a lot of JKD guys focused too much on trapping. If it's all you know and do, then you'll be in a world of hurt when going up against people who can hit AND grapple.

Some MMAists are aware of and use trapping. Although, there might be room for improvement.

Before entering the trapping range, MMAists have methods to control or clear a limb: position (manipulating the centerline), touching the lead hand, cover the rear hand, feinting, occupying the center line (e.g., jab, stiff arm, etc.), hand fighting, etc.

Controlling the opponent (e.g., limbs, center, etc.) from the furthest distance away is often the most effective.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:35 am

C.J.W. wrote:"As soon as the UFC came out, they realized that trapping range does not exist...it's not trained in MMA because it doesn't exist."

To be fair to the BJJ expert you left out, "As soon as the UFC came out, they realized that trapping range does not exist . . . Because what they call trapping range is a brief moment in time where people will actually grab. As soon as people started grabbing each other, trapping range completely disappeared. . . ."

I am not aware of any fight competition video showing a wing chun player using trapping. Here is a relatively recent fight where Li Zihao (wing chun) wins, but does not use any trapping:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3E6RmzXrnc
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:25 am

I actually agree that traditional WC -- and the way that it is mainly trained using Chisao -- isn't very useful at all in MMA or any other sport fighting format, especially against boxers who are good at throwing rapid head shots from different angles while moving in and out of range using footwork.

The only thing I didn't like about the video was they seemed to be implying that since trapping does not work in MMA, it also does not work in real-life situations, and that's why MMA guys don't even bother wasting their time working on it. (Maybe it's just me...)

FYI, I've actually used trapping a couple of times on the street successfully. The first time was on someone who charged in and tried to grab my shirt during a heated argument, and the second time was at a crowded outdoor market when I felt a pickpocket reaching into my back pocket.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Subitai on Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:53 am

Separate from Trapping but not far apart...

You know I keep telling people this from my personal sparring / fight preparation and experience in ring... "That is the ability to hinder or stop your opponent from being able to fully withdrawl his arm is one of the most defining aspects that separate traditional martial arts usage from modern mma." Also that the sweet science of western boxing has allot to do with it.

It is easy to do NO, but you have to understand certain facts:
- Is my opponent willing to extend his arms and bridge with me or not?
- Can I use my environment for example, against a cage fence to crowd the space...thus limiting movement?

In this aspect, I'll give 2 examples in which it happens all the time.

1) For example, an "Overhook wrapping an opponents arm" it stops him from using it. For Forever...NO! but for as long as it lasts yes. Hence it is trapped during that time.

2) If you PIN an arm down and PRESS it against his body....Is it trapped? YES....but only for as long as it lasts. Ufc fighters do this all the time (when near the cage fence) * For example, pin an arm down against his belly and then roll over it with an elbow strike (using the same arm)

As I said, those happen most often near the fence when the space is crowded.

Now...could it happen when there is more space in the center of the ring? Yes, but only if you either stop him from pulling his arm back or the guy is willing to leave his arms out to be bridged. Obviously, the latter would not be likely in UFC.

So back to what the expert said, I agree that the so called "80's Range of trapping" went away...but it's not that it isn't possible.

=======================================================

As a side note...It should be completely obvious as to WHY the "80's Range of trapping" went away in the modern MMA arena. BUT....

The mistake is thinking that the JKD version of 80's trapping is the only way to do it.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Greg J on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:43 pm

As I saw, the three main opinions shared in the video were:

1. What is being shown isn't "pressure testing"
2. The trap/ entry prefix to the kote gaishi wrist lock was JKD, not Aikido (and much skepticism was expressed re: trapping in general)
3. The training methodology of BJJ is superior to most other arts

Although I agree with the initial observation that what was being shown was not "pressure testing" as understood by most martial artists, most of what these BJJ "experts" shared rubbed me the wrong way. Besides their condescending attitudes, what really bothered me was when one of them essentially said you have to pressure test something for it to work in a self-defense situation, while later saying that simply "visualizing" how to adapt their BJJ to a knife attack is great self-defense training. ???

Having subsequently visited Lenny Sly's page and watched some of his videos, I actually appreciate what he is doing more than Rokas, whose primary purpose right now is seems to be to demonstrate that Aikido is pretending to be something that it isn't (a martial art that can be used for self-defense). Lenny Sly seems to have modified his training methods and also functionalized his aikido in a way that makes it more self-defense oriented. But man, he seems to have a serious case of 'roid rage going, lol.

Best,
Greg
Last edited by Greg J on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:19 am

I would like to interject a shameless plug for my episode about the dark side of Aikido into proceedings at this point:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/aikido-heresies

That is all, thank you :)
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby vagabond on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:39 am

imagine if someone somewhere had something to say about the technique itself, wouldn't that be wild?

this guy with the funny lookin face seems to have given it a go

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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Greg J on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm

vagabond wrote:
imagine if someone somewhere had something to say about the technique itself, wouldn't that be wild?



Hi vagabond,

The original video was a response to another video....my comments were restricted to the video shown in the OP.

In terms of the technique itself (shown in Lenny Sly's video), I think that using kotegaishi as a takedown or throw is low percentage for three reasons:

1. it is extremely easy for people (untrained as well as trained) to counter
2. to pull it off requires the use of fine motor skills, which are the first to go in an adrenal state
3. anytime you go two-on-one you leave yourself open to being grabbed, stabbed, or punched by the other hand (sometimes it's unavoidable to go two-on-one, but if that's the case it makes more sense to me to go for a high percentage move).

FWIW, the only time I have been able to pull off a wrist lock in a non-dojo/ training session was once the other person was on the ground, after my partner and I each had an arm, and I used the wrist lock as a way of adding a little pain compliance to get the person to calm down and stop fighting.

vagabond wrote:
this guy with the funny lookin face seems to have given it a go



Actually, he is demonstrating a completely different technique. :)

Best,
Greg
Last edited by Greg J on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:42 pm

Greg J wrote:FWIW, the only time I have been able to pull off a wrist lock in a non-dojo/ training session was once the other person was on the ground, after my partner and I each had an arm, and I used the wrist lock as a way of adding a little pain compliance to get the person to calm down and stop fighting.



Best,
Greg



example of a lock in real time being used to take a person down.
hard to say if it was staged or not...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkBYkBhM-QQ
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby Greg J on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:59 pm

windwalker wrote:
example of a lock in real time being used to take a person down.
hard to say if it was staged or not...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkBYkBhM-QQ


Staged or not, that was pretty sweet to watch!

GrahamB wrote:I would like to interject a shameless plug for my episode about the dark side of Aikido into proceedings at this point:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/aikido-heresies

That is all, thank you :)


I finished listening to this tonight, and found it really intriguing. I will definitely be working my way through the Heretics podcast (may also give Woven Energy a listen as well). Much of what Damon said re: his own experience with Aikido resonated with my own, and his technical critiques were IMHO spot on.

As for his broader analysis of the different cultural, social, and religious forces shaping Aikido and Ueshiba, it all made a lot of sense. I am curious about his sources. It seems like he did a lot of research for this, and I'd be interested in reading more (especially about Sokaku Takeda.) Would he be willing to share them, or perhaps have a recommended reading list?

Thanks and take care,
Greg
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Re: BJJ Experts Break Down Lenny Sly's Aikido Video

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:56 pm

Hey Greg,

The Aikido episode is (sadly) our most popular by a long way in terms of downloads. But I suppose it's our most controversial episode, and Aikido has a lot of followers, so no surprise. We did say we wouldn't go over it again, as I think he finds the subject of Aikido depressing :) but it's been so popular we might come back to it.

Damon's describes a lot of his sources as "first hand experience", and he's been in Japan quite a lot so he probably means meeting people, but I know he studies an awful lot of history books. I'll ask him who he recommends on Takeda.

I'm currently reading Elis Amdur's Hidden in Plain Sight, which has whole chapters on the man. I doubt you'd find a better resource than that. He looks at what he was like as a person quite a lot - the psychological side - the conclusion I'm getting from the book is that he was a very damaged individual. Lots of childhood trauma. Of course, a lot of this is the author's own conclusion.

best,
Graham
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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