Kwan Um Do Kwang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:41 pm

wiesiek wrote:ok,
thank you Guys for the word of warning.
To make my position clear, and answer the questions :

- If practicing Zen is cult in your opinion, then I`m doomed :)
- we paying by sweat on trainings, not any fee for instructor.
btw, interesting, that H.S. clips examples shows quite big crowd. We are 2- 4 crazy guys , and Mark has very few students in US.
- worth to mention, that first time from looong time I feel sore muscles next day, /I`m by any means greenhorn in heavy workouts/, and I like it .
- I posted the Shimgumdo page, but looked on it only briefly , so cannot comment about Kim`s performance yet,
but
I heard exactly the same comment all around, however based only from clips.
Things became quite different when it come to real fight - there are the words, of course,
so
I opened thread here in hope, that some of our board experienced members met him already, or will do
in the future
- Soe San Nim was with Kim in Japan for invitation from "fencing circle"- He was very proud of KIm and I`m no in position of trashing words of vulnerable Zen Master.
- there are big gaps in Korean fencing traditions, like here in Poland, and of course legends may sound weak
but
I`m not to sensitive in terms of Mastery, let it be : big or very big, not to mention the biggest :D
I can describe myself as not so bad and experienced in h2h combat only, then I was in hope , that somebody like you Finny, experienced in sword fencing give Kims a try ...
I simply like to train hard, and all moves which I get so far ,are :
not to complicated and looks very effective

-I don`t mop up a story, like penguin fish, but it doesn`t mean that I don`t like it -joint-


I'm glad you're enjoying the training Wiesiek - that's important. If you have an interest in sword arts I would encourage some research. There are branch dojo teaching Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu (the sword art I study) in Poland - you might be interested to see the difference between authentic Japanese sword arts and Kwan Um Do Kwang in person.

I'm afraid I'm in Australia - not in a position to offer any personal opinion on Mr Kim, beyond what I can see on video. And I don't 'fence' I'm sorry. Apparently when the Katori Shinto ryu was being considered as an 'intangible cultural asset' by the Japanese Gov, they sent a Kendo player to test one of the shihan. When he stepped up without kendo armour or bamboo sword, the kendo guy quietly withdrew..
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Trick on Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:21 am

Finny wrote:There are branch dojo teaching Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu (the sword art I study) in Poland -
Finny, do you know if there is any Jigen-ryu around in (north)Europe ?
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:06 am

The most important thing is whether or not the art is practical in fencing. Only you can answer that. Hold it to the same standard as Judo, an art that is held in high regard because it is constantly tested by professional athletes. From the video it looks like that "monk" has some skill in something, but the swordsmanship at the end looked extremely impractical. A lot of the techniques are flashy and ineffective in combat. I'd need to see it in action to say for sure, though. Then again, only fencing skill impresses me. Anything else can only add to it from there.

The Niten Ichi Ryu video left me utterly unimpressed with its lack of realism, but that Katori Shinto Ryu video I have seen before and that is much more realistic, both in speed and control, but also the actual exchanges. If they also fence at full speed/contact then it may well be worth learning.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:15 am

Finny wrote:Apparently when the Katori Shinto ryu was being considered as an 'intangible cultural asset' by the Japanese Gov, they sent a Kendo player to test one of the shihan. When he stepped up without kendo armour or bamboo sword, the kendo guy quietly withdrew..

That's beyond ridiculous... -argh-
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:06 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:The most important thing is whether or not the art is practical in fencing. Only you can answer that. Hold it to the same standard as Judo, an art that is held in high regard because it is constantly tested by professional athletes.


Says you. Ever hear what happened when the greatest fencer of all time had a real sword fight? He suddenly found it wasn't like fencing..

MaartenSFS wrote:The Niten Ichi Ryu video left me utterly unimpressed with its lack of realism, but that Katori Shinto Ryu video I have seen before and that is much more realistic, both in speed and control, but also the actual exchanges. If they also fence at full speed/contact then it may well be worth learning.


You have no idea what you're looking at, or talking about. Do you fence at full speed/contact? (ie with real blades?)

MaartenSFS wrote:
Finny wrote:Apparently when the Katori Shinto ryu was being considered as an 'intangible cultural asset' by the Japanese Gov, they sent a Kendo player to test one of the shihan. When he stepped up without kendo armour or bamboo sword, the kendo guy quietly withdrew..

That's beyond ridiculous... -argh-


Care to explain?
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:17 pm

Trick wrote:
Finny wrote:There are branch dojo teaching Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu (the sword art I study) in Poland -
Finny, do you know if there is any Jigen-ryu around in (north)Europe ?


Sorry Trick - I don't. There are three 'Jigen ryu' around that I know of - two are what most people mean when they say 'Jigen ryu',ie famous during Bakumatsu period:

Jigen ryu Hyoho - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigen-ry%C5%AB
I think this is only practiced in Kagoshima (satsuma) . There is a foreigner who is a member I can put you in touch with if you're interested.

Yakumaru (Nodachi) Jigen ryu - Branch of the Jigen ryu Hyoho - practiced in Kagoshima and Tokyo, may be branches outside Japan, I don't know.

The third is Tenshinsho Jigen ryu - although it has the name, and is linked through it's history, I understand that technically it is distinct. There is a shibu dojo in Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshinsho_Jigen_Ryu

http://www.jigenryu.jp/

Sorry I couldn't be more help.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby I-mon on Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:43 pm

Finny wrote:


Loved this video, thanks!
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:06 pm

I train with a real sword. I fence with a fake one. My fencing partners and I do this every week. With real swords it's over after one round. Your argument is founded on pure fantasy and lacks any logic whatsoever. I can guarantee you that fencing a lot prepares you better for sword fighting than unrealistic partner demos.

I train solo drills, dynamic partner drills and full-contact fencing. You must also believe that forms and Tuishou alone will be enough to turn you into a great unarmed fighter. We have seen how that turns out. I assume that the fencing that you speak of is either Olympic fencing or Kendo, both of which are hindered by limiting rulesets that turn them into games. Obviously practitioners of these will fail at the real thing. That is far from what I train and suggest that Wisiek finds.

We have excellent modern equipment that makes it so that we can get as close as possible to actual sword fighting with relative safety. Ancient armies would have utilised it in a heartbeat, yet it is beneath you.. Enjoy your LARPing.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:49 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I train with a real sword. I fence with a fake one. My fencing partners and I do this every week. With real swords it's over after one round. Your argument is founded on pure fantasy and lacks any logic whatsoever. I can guarantee you that fencing a lot prepares you better for sword fighting than unrealistic partner demos.

I train solo drills, dynamic partner drills and full-contact fencing. You must also believe that forms and Tuishou alone will be enough to turn you into a great unarmed fighter. We have seen how that turns out. I assume that the fencing that you speak of is either Olympic fencing or Kendo, both of which are hindered by limiting rulesets that turn them into games. Obviously practitioners of these will fail at the real thing. That is far from what I train and suggest that Wisiek finds.

We have excellent modern equipment that makes it so that we can get as close as possible to actual sword fighting with relative safety. Ancient armies would have utilised it in a heartbeat, yet it is beneath you.. Enjoy your LARPing.


What argument are you saying 'is founded on pure fantasy and lacks any logic whatsoever'? Because I haven't really put one forward, other than the assertion that you don't know what you're talking about.

What do you mean when you say 'fencing prepares you for sword fighting'? What is 'sword fighting' to you? Would your view or approach change if you were to actually fight someone wearing armour? That is to say - as it stands you 'fence' quite happily striking protected targets, operating under the assumption that in a hypothetical 'sword fight' these would be effective strikes. What would you do if you faced an opponent with a real sword, wherein all those targets protected by your 'excellent modern equipment' - were protected by excellent armour.. you know, the kind men have used for centuries? Would your opinion change? Or would you still think 'sparring', targeting protected areas (Men, Kote, Do for example...) is the most effective way to 'sword fight'?

'Excellent modern equipment' is no better than the old equipment, which has also been around for centuries.

I-mon wrote:Loved this video, thanks!


You're very welcome Simon. The BBC 'Way of the Warrior' episode on TSKSR is also great, and explains something of the school:

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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Trick on Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:09 am

Finny wrote:
Trick wrote:
Finny wrote:There are branch dojo teaching Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu (the sword art I study) in Poland -
Finny, do you know if there is any Jigen-ryu around in (north)Europe ?


Sorry Trick - I don't. There are three 'Jigen ryu' around that I know of - two are what most people mean when they say 'Jigen ryu',ie famous during Bakumatsu period:

Jigen ryu Hyoho - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigen-ry%C5%AB
I think this is only practiced in Kagoshima (satsuma) . There is a foreigner who is a member I can put you in touch with if you're interested.

Yakumaru (Nodachi) Jigen ryu - Branch of the Jigen ryu Hyoho - practiced in Kagoshima and Tokyo, may be branches outside Japan, I don't know.

The third is Tenshinsho Jigen ryu - although it has the name, and is linked through it's history, I understand that technically it is distinct. There is a shibu dojo in Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshinsho_Jigen_Ryu

http://www.jigenryu.jp/

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Thanks. Yes I had that first one in mind, the ‘highly spirited’ Jigen-ryu of Kagoshima, from videos I’ve seen I think my spirit would quite like the practice. Yes the info on the Wiki is pretty much that I also found about it. If I ever find myself in Kagoshima I will definitely look it up
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:07 am

Your assertion that fencing isn't a necessary and critical part of swordsmanship training...

I don't train armoured combat. In China very few could afford it or even bothered. For this reason most of the techniques can also be applied with other sword-like objects. Your elitism is quite annoying. Why are you even talking on a Chinese martial arts forum?
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:12 am

Evaluation of the style, or personal ability can be very tricky from the videos.
Not only, `cause you may see only 2dimentional pictures, quite often moves are masked or showed not completely, or even wrongly finished.
Finnys clips may looks for someone like weak Kabuki theater.
We should remember, that any system is as good as you. Speakin` so, I may get my arse kicked even by this Poongs guy one day. :o

When I was young MA teacher and opened my school, I`ve been thinking, that I`m good...
And one day I had big troubles when sparr with a newbie . It come out that he has only some classical /sport/ fencing background. This clearly showed me importance of weapon/s/ training,
however I changed profession from Martial for Visual Arts and hadn`t time to dig into it until today.

Answering Maarten post;
we train with wooden bokkens. Staged fighting forms so far, but with full speed and power, strange, that I didn`t broke it yet :)
Straight sword / less than 1 kg weight/is the real thing which I own. I use it for TJ forms and cutting tests.
I agree, that testing with full speed and protection gear is the only way to get it right.

Finny - no eyes and throat protection at list, and sharp sword example has two faces:
1st - he is showing clear Zen mind -
2nd - stupid like hell -

Today even the biggest sword Master can be shoot from the distance, so training it for the combat only is pointless.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby wiesiek on Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:32 am

;) @Marteen - in samurai tradition you have to keep face and not show any emotions outside for any cost ,what looks sometime so rigidly,
that it looks like samurai with stick in the arse, /just look on vid./ so take it lightly.
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby Finny on Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:19 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Your assertion that fencing isn't a necessary and critical part of swordsmanship training...


Where did I say that? I said your assessment that 'the most important thing is whether or not the art is practical in fencing' is entirely subjective, and pointed out that there are numerous historical examples of individuals who actually fought with swords who did not fence, and schools of swordsmanship which did not emphasise fencing training. Sorry if that offends.

MaartenSFS wrote:I don't train armoured combat. In China very few could afford it or even bothered. For this reason most of the techniques can also be applied with other sword-like objects. Your elitism is quite annoying. Why are you even talking on a Chinese martial arts forum?


That's nice. I'm not sure where you get elitism from; I was one of the more polite members in posting my assessment of the OP, I thought.. but I guess I'm hardly impartial. You may have noticed this thread is not about Chinese MA - the mods tend to be pretty laid back, provided we stay polite and on the topic of MA in general. Would you like to return to the topic?
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Re: Kwan Um Do Kwang

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:50 am

Well, when you say that I have no idea what I am looking at or talking about I'd say that that is far from polite..

You may not have used those words, but your stance is clear.

I never left the topic. My original advice holds true for any type of martial art, whether armed or unarmed or armoured or unarmoured. Without fencing/sparring it is just LARPing.
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