Inside China's war on Islam

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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:54 am

Bao wrote:Sweden, yeah... boring compared to many other countries. But many smaller countries are boring. Stockholm is better than some other smaller capitals, but my main issue is the Swedes themselves. Swedes, especially from worker and middle classes, usually have a disregard for culture, art and general knowledge. So if you want to speak about something else than the weather, Swedish celebrities and the royal family, most Swedes don’t have much to say. :P

Yes that quite sums it up
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:18 am

alright y'all i'm sober again

it's frankly a little frightening how quickly the collective you has managed to shift this thread from virtue signaling to simply masturbatory. if you want to talk about yourselves so badly why not just say so?

graham, it seems like you're actually trying to get something started here. what are you doing about it? don't answer that question, i'm not interested and this is still the internet, but i bet folks in your area of the world are

peacedog: there's no such thing as society. i suggest you return to the genealogy of morals and forget what you thought you knew about the ubermensch.

it looks like in some parts of the world, white people persecute brown (and other) people, and in this part of the world, brown people persecute white (and other) people


Well, it's really a war against Muslim peoples. Wars against religion rarely succeed. It didn't work with Christianity. And, in fact, this story would be much bigger news if Christians were being treated this way. Or, imagine if it were Jews. There'd be more concern, but it wouldn't make any difference. The PRC has done it before.


both of you need to nut up and just say "this is about me"

Exactly how much of what media says is true is extremely hard to find out


in fact, it is not. there's almost always contact info for the journalist included with an article. there's the simplest expedient, getting your news from multiple sources. and there are entire textbooks on the subject of media literacy. you're old, not feeble. and you know as well as the rest of us that uighur is not synonymous with islam, sets vs subsets, etc

oragamiworldview as usual has nothing to contribute beyond attempting to make this about their own pleasure, so points for that my dude

may i suggest you all treat this conversation as if it dealt with the subject of an ongoing genocide?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:31 am

Well, either the Guardian article is correct or not. One's opinion of the writer's conclusion is not enough to refute the facts. It may be true that reporters might highlight or emphasize particular events in order to sway public opinion. But, the reader can just check the facts and ignore the writer's conclusion. I.e., maybe the Guardian is trying to denigrate China. Yet, if these events happened, shouldn't they be reported?

Imo, "China" is not trying to eliminate Islam, Christianity, or any other religion. It is not a cultural revolution. It is political repression. My point is that because the op article was about Islam, people would accept the logic of such repression. One of the premises given was that only one "culture" could be dominant and that "multi-culturalism" was doomed to failure. I argue that multi-culturalism is just one of several straw-man categories that could be used to legitimize the maintenance of social and political control by a specific group. And, that group is not simply "Americans" because groups that desire control define who is or isn't and can or can be American.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:41 am

may i suggest you all treat this conversation as if it dealt with the subject of an ongoing genocide?


I'm not sure that these events should be characterized as genocide. I agree that arguing about the people you're arguing with is fruitless. It's certainly true that there is often more discussion about that than the subject at hand.

I'm not sure what we can do about events in China. Otoh, there are many ways to try to affect events and policies in the US, or "where we are." Making people aware of things one considers atrocities is one way. But, it's the internet; so, somebody's not going to like it. I just don't take it personally.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:58 am

.
"Exactly how much of what media says is true is extremely hard to find out"


in fact, it is not. there's almost always contact info for the journalist included with an article. there's the simplest expedient, getting your news from multiple sources. and there are entire textbooks on the subject of media literacy


Good post, good points.
for those so inclined it's quite easy to verify or corroborate source material for accuracy.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:50 am

Trick wrote:
grzegorz wrote:Exactly or any type of martial art.

I have seen neo-nazis training in MT and BJJ and had to laugh.

Oh! The irony!

Not that we have nazis here but the fact is we benefit from "multiculturalism." At least I know I do.

According to the Wiki the oldest of the two brothers that founded BJJ was a strong follower of theosophy who’s founder Blawaski(or something like that) claim to have gotten the teaching from the “great white brotherhood” , sound pretty supremacist, doesn’t it 8-) and variant of that “religion” was taken up buy WW2 Nazis ……That was something I found out when trying to find out something dark about the history of BJJ to counter this forums GrahamB’s “the dark history of Aikido”. But I didn’t proceed since the other founding brother seem to have been a good guy so I didn’t proceed


Which is why we need all need to speak up. Look at what just happened to a critic of the far right the mayor of Gdansk.

I don't argue with people, that's pointless. But when someone continually spews out hate and nonsense and blames the outside world for their situation then I will point out a few things. They can take it or leave it but when good men do nothing evil takes over, just look at the United Snakes!
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 am

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The anit-multicultualism argument is doubly ridiculous coming from a gweilo who practices CMA.

:) are you labeling me as “anti-multiculturalist” ? Then I guess that show you are polarized to the point you just gotta throw bombs, but that’s maybe an US policy to do, carry on gunslinger 8-)


I guess the old saying is true, a hit dog WILL holler, lol.

I honestly was not thinking about you when I wrote that, but apparently you think it fits? What post of yours do you think that was in response to?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vadaga on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Currently reading 'Day of Empire': actually Tang Dynasty China was a relatively open and multicultural place but the An Lushan rebellion messed up trust in the society and then it became more and more xenophobic to its own detriment. US should take notice of this (book is a bit dated, 2007 vintage)

In my own $0.02 things started going south in China...when Xi Jinping came to power. Before I think the country was tiptoeing towards something better but now it has flipped in the opposite direction.

As an aside, I can't wait til India has more people in China making the world's most populous country a democracy and then the argument of ‘大国不能民主化’ will be even more specious than it already is.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:10 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The anit-multicultualism argument is doubly ridiculous coming from a gweilo who practices CMA.

:) are you labeling me as “anti-multiculturalist” ? Then I guess that show you are polarized to the point you just gotta throw bombs, but that’s maybe an US policy to do, carry on gunslinger 8-)


I guess the old saying is true, a hit dog WILL holler, lol.

I honestly was not thinking about you when I wrote that, but apparently you think it fits? What post of yours do you think that was in response to?

Trying to wriggle you out of this? 8-) well since I’m the only one(I think) in this thread who is an laowai living in China practing CMA, that’s why ;)
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:55 am

Trick wrote:Trying to wriggle you out of this? 8-) well since I’m the only one(I think) in this thread who is an laowai living in China practing CMA, that’s why ;)

I was right now years old when I learned you were a laowai and that you lived in China.

My earlier comment was in reference to Peacedog's fascist rant about how the multiculturalists are out to destroy the world.

But if you REALLY want it to be about you, you can have it. :D
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:07 am

All I know about what happens in China and the wider world comes from the news. Then again, I've only read about what happened in WW2, Cambodia, or even Mississippi. Imprisoning people in order to control or "re-educate" them has been done for centuries. The North Koreans has made it an art for half a century. Ask any defector. I realize that "freedom of religion" is not available in all countries. I understand that Americans might accept that fact as a reality. My problem is that, imo, people who believe in "American" principles should find religious repression horrible ... ok, just "bad." They might admit that there's nothing they can do about it, and say "Whew, glad I live in America."

But, I can point out when people rationalize repression using mythical premises that are contrary to fact. And, one can't compare 4,000 years of Chinese people and "culture" in China with the multi-culture in the US that has resulted from people who've been here little more than one hundred years. Assimilation is something that happens when the society absorbs the people. For example, a family from India (China, Italy, or anywhere) comes to America. Mama cooks dinner: Indian food. The result: Americans assimilate Indian food. Of course, it's not Indian food anymore. Oh well, nor is Chow mein or General Tso's chicken Chinese food. :)

Edit: about Tikka Masala

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqR1fh7X3Yw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdKNnwpDWmk
Last edited by Steve James on Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 am

They might admit that there's nothing they can do about it


they who? and why?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:52 pm

? The subject was Americans, specifically those [Americans] who'd argue that "Shit is really bad in China, but what can I do?"

Why would they say that? Because they feel that there's nothing they can do about what Chinese people do to Chinese people in China. That's not the same as saying that "It is inevitable because of xyz."

Don't bother saying "but nobody said that." I was making an observation to illustrate a point that you can agree with or not. "Why" I make the point is to address the claim as it relates to the US. I don't think I can help repressed Chinese, or Canadians, from where I sit. Well, I'm a member of Human RIghts Watch, but woohoo that doesn't do much. What I won't do is rationalize, justify, or condone oppression "because" they're members of some other ethnic or religious group.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:53 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Trick wrote:Trying to wriggle you out of this? 8-) well since I’m the only one(I think) in this thread who is an laowai living in China practing CMA, that’s why ;)

I was right now years old when I learned you were a laowai and that you lived in China.

My earlier comment was in reference to Peacedog's fascist rant about how the multiculturalists are out to destroy the world.

But if you REALLY want it to be about you, you can have it. :D

don’t we all want some spotlight time, if just for a brief moment. 8-)
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:49 am

Trick wrote:don’t we all want some spotlight time, if just for a brief moment. 8-)


Happy to be of service. :D

Steve James wrote:? The subject was Americans, specifically those [Americans] who'd argue that "Shit is really bad in China, but what can I do?"

Why would they say that? Because they feel that there's nothing they can do about what Chinese people do to Chinese people in China. That's not the same as saying that "It is inevitable because of xyz."

Don't bother saying "but nobody said that." I was making an observation to illustrate a point that you can agree with or not. "Why" I make the point is to address the claim as it relates to the US. I don't think I can help repressed Chinese, or Canadians, from where I sit. Well, I'm a member of Human RIghts Watch, but woohoo that doesn't do much. What I won't do is rationalize, justify, or condone oppression "because" they're members of some other ethnic or religious group.


Yeah in large part I think you nailed it.

The Tao Te Ching even says you put yourself right, then your home, then your community, then your state, then your country, then the world. (I paraphrase)

We (Americans, and let me take a second to acknowledge the hubris inherent in calling ourselves that when we're just one part of one three American continents, but I digress) are up to our eyebrows in culture war. Fascists and socialists are duking it out in the public consciousness for supremacy over the moral core of the nation.

Once we get past that maybe can start looking at the mote in our neighbor's eye.
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