Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:49 am

The following is a Google translation of the 2015 master thesis of the Shanghai Institute of Physical Education:

http://cdmd.cnki.com.cn/Article/CDMD-10 ... 626576.htm

A Study of the Relationship between Hongtong Tongbei Boxing and the Origin of Chen Style Taijiquan

Lei Jiming

【Abstract】 The Hongtong Tongbei Boxing in Hongdong County of Shanxi Province and Chen’s Taijiquan in Wen County of Henan Province have a close relationship with each other in history. This has been recognized by the two boxer inheritors and related researchers; however, There are different opinions on the specific relationship between the two sources. At present, people's cognition of the relationship between the two types of fists mostly stays in the boxing theory "The General Theory of Boxing / Songs", the content of some boxing, the same or similar aspects of techniques and historical legends, lack of empirical research and systematic comparison. . This paper takes the boxing spectrum of two boxing as the main research object, and uses the technique system and story legend of the two boxing as auxiliary information to test the relationship between Hongtong Tongbeiquan and Chenshitaijiquan. This research uses literature research method, interview method, historical research method, logic analysis method and other research methods. Firstly, it puts forward various hypotheses about the specific relationship between the two types of fists, covering the possible situations of the relationship between the source and the flow of all the two fists; The total number of boxing articles such as "Boxing General Theory/Song" and "108 Changchang Boxing" boxing spectrum are compared and verified; finally, by verifying the previous research hypothesis, it is possible to judge the possibility of the research hypothesis being established. At the same time, relevant inferences are also made based on the content of the textual research. The main results of this study are as follows: (1) The boxing content of the "Boxing General Theory/Song" and "108 Potential" Changquan Spectrum shared by the two fists is not the mutual learning or plagiarism of the two fists, but their respective All have the inheritance experience of related words and deeds. (2) It is found that in addition to the known two boxing species, there are other similar or identical boxing contents in the "108 Potential Changquan" boxing spectrum and the "24th potential/13th potential. Three sets" boxing spectrum. : Rolling method, double-knife routine, and gun routine. (3) There may be two relationship between Hongtong Tongbeiquan and Chenshi Taijiquan: First, Hongdong Tongbeiquan originated from the spread of Chen’s Taijiquan—Chenjiagou, Hongdong Tongcaiquan The predecessor of Chen's Taijiquan: Chen Jiaquan (Chen's family biography martial arts); the second is that the same boxing method of Hongtong Tongbeiquan and Chen's Taijiquan is derived from other boxing or boxing organization.
[degree-granting unit]: Shanghai Institute of Physical Education
[degree level]: Master
[Year of degree grant]: 2015
[Category Number]: G852.11
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby HotSoup on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:18 am

FWIW, Chen Liqing of Xiaojia Chen TJQ learned that form and believed it was either the ancestor form of Chen TJQ or at least close enough to that to spend time learning and practicing it.
Last edited by HotSoup on Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:32 pm

陳氏太極拳第19世 陳金〜陳椿元系 小架式伝人・陳立清老師

Master Chen LiQing, the 19th generation of Chen Shi Taiji Quan,she inherits the Small Frame of Chen Taiji Quan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_UJ-M6KnLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlczH0A_ruI
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:30 pm

And if I'm not mistaken, some big cats from the Dajia fraction weren't happy at all about Chen Liqing's views on that!
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:16 pm

According to the book Scholar Boxer by Marnix Wells, the Tongbei Boxing of Hongdong district in Shanxi preserves records that relate this style to both Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Classic and Taiji Quan’s old name of “Long Boxing” - Chang Quan. Hongdong Tongbei contains “108 manners”, its special characteristics are “the advancing hand always coils, adapting forms more than enough, entering sideways, evasions angle for surprise”. The Hongdong Tongbei Quan (also called Winding Coiling Boxing) of Hongdong County also has a 108 posture Long Fist routine. The Chen old frame (Lao Jia) Taiji at one time contained a Chang Quan (Long Fist) routine of 108 postures, but was later considered “lost”. The technique names of these two sets are very similar, if not the same. Some people of the 8th generation of Hongdong Tongbei Quan cited in their quanpu manual that, “During the Qianlong Emperor (1736-1795), in Su Baozhen village there was a martial art called Da Xiao Hong Quan - Big and Little Red Fist boxing (In Shanxi, Hong Quan was a very popular style.). One day, a wandering man called Guo Yongfu criticized this art. There was a fight and he won; after that, he taught a boxing he called Chang Quan (Long Fist).” In fact, his real name was probably Chen Youfu from the Chen village, he had changed his name to Guo (maternal side’s maiden name) because he was hiding from Henan authorities (he accidentally killed an official there). Hongdong was where the Chen village ancestors were originally descended from and he had retreated there where he was being protected by some local authorities.
The “108 Long Fist” is a system of its own, containing the major routine, a sub-routine, weapon routines, and sparring exercises. The major routine has 108 forms. First 54 forms called “Heaven Star”, Remaining 54 forms called “Earth Star”. Heaven represents “Yang” & Earth represents “Yin”. There are 36 elbow skills, 37 drop-throwing skills, 7 dodging methods, 72 grabs, 24 leg skills, and 24 hand methods. The Sub-routine has 32 regular methods and 27 winding hand methods. This branch of Tongbei is a mixture of an ancient version of Chen Taiji Quan and their local Da-Xiao Hong Quan. But, since Chen Taiji Quan was derived from Dong Cheng’s Tongbei Quan, it closely resembles it in many aspects.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby HotSoup on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:01 am

Chen Yongfu, a disciple of Chen LIqing's, demoing this presumably ancient form:



As usual, it is hard to say how much the modern state of the form resembles what was there 300-400 years ago. I'd expect both Chen TJQ and Hondong Tongbei to undergo plenty of evolutionary changes since then.
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby HotSoup on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:04 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:And if I'm not mistaken, some big cats from the Dajia fraction weren't happy at all about Chen Liqing's views on that!


Just business, nothing personal! =)
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby robert on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:01 am

The Hongdong Tong Bei tradition traces back to Chen Bu Fu, 12th generation descendant of the famous Chen Taiji Family. Around the year 1780 he killed a government official and was forced to flee. Leaving Henan he traveled to Shanxi province's Hongdong county in Linfen prefecture where he had relatives living. Hongdong was the original home of the Chen family before they were relocated to Henan during the early Ming land clearances. Changing his name to Guo Yongfu he sought a job teaching martial arts to the son of a local official. The style he taught was called Wújí Tōng Bèi Chán Quán (Wuji Connected Through the Back Reeling Boxing) otherwise known as Hongdong Tongbei. It's a mixture of early Chen family martial arts and local Shanxi TongBei.


The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby Appledog on Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:13 am

This is the most likely origin story based on an examination of what people practice today, however the story melts out a bit if you look at historical sources into (something more like) there is some historical art from which both tongbei and chen style came out of, one before the other (or not).

We are talking a distance shorter than chaquan and huaquan here. You can even find tongbei videos online of people doing cloud hands while circle walking. (aside; i came up with a similar way to practice Sun style cloud hands in a limited space, by doing them in a kind of circle walking. Did I invent a totally new style? Of course not.) Same basic skills, Same formulaic expression, but different expressions based on the people involved. For example, how CFK's students apparently all look different than one another. Except for FZQ of course.

I would also point out that since both arts have virtually the same push hands practice, that for all intents and purposes they are virtually the same art anyway. It all comes down to what you want to emphasize, and the particular jibengongs and qigongs and applications you want to focus on, or which are the style of the times.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby HotSoup on Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:15 am

It seems curious that at the time when Chen Style wasn't a thing, this form was performed in a different way:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/WWjMF1Et_0Y?t=78[/youtube]

Looks like it's even the same guy as in the video above :)
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Re: Hongtong Tongbei and Chen Style Taijiquan

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:09 am

History has sociological and psychological element, which is visible at times, and sometimes not so visible.

Just brainstorming that perhaps, and due to the times (1500s) or so with the Li family, Hongtong Tongbei was thought of as being too much of a village style (I am guessing ??? 8-) ;D ) that Chen and Li family thought that they could borrow and synthesize that unknown style and integrate it with Chen/LI Family style to make their own mark. Fast forward to when Yang Luchan went to Beijing and taught his style, everyone imagined that this was the original "Rouquan" until the history started coming out to the contrary.

If you bring something out from nowhere and people are none the wiser then it is easy to mask influences of family styles and origins. Keep in mind the current concept of intellectual property and usage/utility of said product.
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