Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby vagabond on Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:38 am

Trick


tell me again what graham actually meant? i missed it, you were mumbling
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:19 am

Oh, you guys!
While having drinks with Tibor Kalman one night, he told me, “When you make something no one hates, no one fucking loves it.” Bollocks to Brexit.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby Trick on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:16 pm

vagabond wrote:
Trick

, you were mumbling

Ah, the Swedish chef at the muppet show could probably spell it out better than me :)
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby Storm on Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:05 am

Some regulations were enforced by the Bakufu as described in this article about Kage Ryu (Battojutsu)
https://www.koryu.com/library/chyakutake1.html
It seems the length of the sword was standardized and he also mentions that loyal domains (Fudai) were keeping an eye on the old enemies (Tozama).

As someone mentioned before Gekiken was and still is practised in Hokushin Itto Ryu and the Ryuha in which I train Tenjin Shinyo Ryu used Randori in previous times (there is a number of techniques to be used explicitely in Randori). Probably various types of free training/sparring were and still are used but different existing schools.
The posted video (as a random sampler from the www) is of Yagyu Shingan or Shinkage Ryu. The standard way to train in many Koryus is based on Kata. It was and is considered a safe way to train with speed, power and intent a wide range of tenchniques. In competition type training (randori, free sparring) I feel that one mostly falls back on an extremely limited number of techniques (e.g. Karate 4-5 techniques) and most of the curriculum is not used.
In the end in my oppinion it depends on the teacher and practitioners. Even the most "super deadly martial art" can be watered to to a soggy and limp set of dance moves.
Last edited by Storm on Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby I-mon on Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:17 pm

GrahamB wrote:
Trick wrote:from the wiki on Sumo
Professional sumo (ōzumō) roots trace back to the Edo period in Japan as a form of sporting entertainment. The original wrestlers were probably samurai, often rōnin, who needed to find an alternative form of income.
although no info if the contests/performance where ‘stilted’ or had ‘aliveness’ to it as today’s Sumo contests


Learning about Sumo from the podcast was quite a revelation for me. I hadn't realised that it was old, like really old. It goes back before recorded history in Japan.

Each shrine (and there would have been thousands at one point) had its own style of Sumo. So it wasn't one art with a rule set - there were thousands of rule sets, different uniforms, etc. For example in one style winning might be decided by lifting up an opponent from the ground rather than throwing them out of a ring. It was a folk wrestling style inseparable from Shinto.

What we know today as professional sumo was the court sumo style of the edo period. A form of entertainment. Again the Tokugawa suppressed it all down to one regulated style. Sure, it contains genuine competitive resistance training, but it was all heavily regulated compared to what existed before. The origins can still be seen in the rituals before the match, which use similar hand movements you find in a lot of Shamanism/Shinto, but again these are massively simplified.

A handful of old, old sumo styles still survive in Japan, but it's gone the way of Morris dancing in England - something people do once a year at a festival, rather than something people actively practice all the time and get very good at. It's very hard to find info about it (nobody is that interested these days), even on YouTube you can only find it if you search in Japanese.

I've found a couple of clips:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-mf5WCfKc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NkEsWMkiTs

Our sumo podcast episode:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/sumo


Thanks for those clips Graham. In the first one, it's interesting to see that the kid on the left does the walk forward with hands stretched to the sides like he's pretending to be a big fat sumo wrestler, while the kid on the right appears to have been taught a version of the movement which is a classic "six-directions" pull. Spine pulling up and down, arms and legs pulling to the sides, central axis maintained while moving forwards. A concept+body method which Ueshiba and various modern teachers of JMA seem to believe originally came from Shinto and other ancient religious/shamanic practices, and only later entered martial arts. Loved the second clip as well.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:56 am

The guy on the right probably does Judo or something :)

Bear in mind that these arts are now a shadow of their former selves. Just imagine what these would have been like back in the Ashikaga dynasty and earlier - way back in history... back when people were doing them more seriously. I bet they would have been amazing.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby Storm on Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:48 pm

Battlefield combat would have been based on archery and spear fighting, later supplemented by gunnery.
And yabusame, sojutsu and hojutsu can be looked up for demos. Sword wielding and hand to hand combat (this would have been a last resort!) were secondary.
Takenouchi Ryu the oldest Jujutsu school uses terms like Koshi no mawari ( meaning around the hips - weapons!) and Kogusoku Jujutsu where Kogusoku designates armour.
So talking about unarmed combat on the battlefield is talking about a minor, emergency and secondary part of combat. Also assesing the general quality of Japanese martial arts based on that is misguided.

All martial arts no longer used in their original context are shadows of their former selves be they Japanese, Chinese, Western etc.
Last edited by Storm on Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:18 am

I believe we were talking about shrine sumo.
While having drinks with Tibor Kalman one night, he told me, “When you make something no one hates, no one fucking loves it.” Bollocks to Brexit.
http://www.hereticspodcast.com http://taichinotebook.wordpress.com
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby Storm on Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Right. That's why you used the plural form. "These arts are a shadow of".... and just meant shrine Sumo.
Unfortunately for me I realized just now that when you created the topic you were not interested in a discussion but wanted to advertise your view and knowledge of the topic.
My apologies for interfering.
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Re: Japanese martial arts from battlefield to MMA

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:20 pm

"Just meant shrine sumo"?

Just?

There is nothing "just" about Sukozumo. Each shrine had its own art. There used to be thousands of different styles. The videos I posted show 2 of the few that remain, as shadows of their former selves.

Yes, we were talking about shrine sumo, and I did mean "these arts".
While having drinks with Tibor Kalman one night, he told me, “When you make something no one hates, no one fucking loves it.” Bollocks to Brexit.
http://www.hereticspodcast.com http://taichinotebook.wordpress.com
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