BREXIT

[Michael]

Here is one of Graham's Brexit experts with the most persuasive remain argument yet.

https://vimeo.com/314265471

[GrahamB]

Hang on Chris - I thought you left in a huff? Are you back now? But I thought you weren't going to talk about any of your points since you weren't interested in discussing them.

Or are you doing a Brexit?

To Brexit: The act of leaving, but never actually leaving and you just keep talking.

[Steve James]

What's interesting is that neither the winners nor the losers of the referendum are happy, and they take it out on each other. It's expected that the losers would be unhappy, and the winners shouldn't be mad at them. If the situation were reversed, they'd complain too. Complaints about being in the EU are what led to the referendum. Yeah, don't waste energy hating each other.

[origami_itto]

I

Well you know... It's worth it for fuck the immigrants.

Did you miss the part where I said I was pro immigration?

Honestly I missed the part where you were in the conversation. My own country is going to hell fast enough I don't really need to trouble myself with talking sense into idiots across the pond too.

[middleway]

Graham I didn't leave in a huff you complete moron. Don't project. I simply said I was leaving the thread but if people had specifics I would pop back. Re read the post. You poor old nutella fella.

The hilarious thing is that I post rebuttals to information... no response. Ireland, immigration, employment? No response? Not surprised.

You are probably skowering the internet for a cartoon to help you understand politics.

hat's interesting is that neither the winners nor the losers of the referendum are happy, and they take it out on each other. It's expected that the losers would be unhappy, and the winners shouldn't be mad at them. If the situation were reversed, they'd complain too. Complaints about being in the EU are what led to the referendum. Yeah, don't waste energy hating each other.

In general I am happy to say I don't hate remainers at all. And the ones I have met and talked too don't hate me. Grahams a special kind off guy though... and people are allowed to dislike individuals.

Here is one of Graham's Brexit experts with the most persuasive remain argument yet.

https://vimeo.com/314265471

and people actually paid to see that...

[Michael]

She's a PhD and like, an authority on politics 'n stuff.

[GrahamB]

What's interesting is that neither the winners nor the losers of the referendum are happy, and they take it out on each other. It's expected that the losers would be unhappy, and the winners shouldn't be mad at them. If the situation were reversed, they'd complain too. Complaints about being in the EU are what led to the referendum. Yeah, don't waste energy hating each other.

That is the higher ground, but easier to find when it's not you staring the bullets in the face. Maybe I lack the required spiritual strength.

How would a stoic deal with Brexit? I find the stupidity, callousness and mentality of the 'other side' unforgivable. And people on the other side would think of me in the same way. The problem is the same. How do you deal with these people?

Marcus offers the advice “Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness – all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother (not in the physical sense, but as a fellow creature similarly endowed with reason and a share of the divine); therefore none of those things can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading. Neither can I be angry with my brother or fall foul of him; for he and I were born to work together, like a man’s two hands, feet or eyelids, or the upper and lower rows of his teeth. To obstruct each other is against Nature’s law – and what is irritation or aversion but a form of obstruction.”

And yet I find I cannot. I cannot forgive and I cannot forget what they've done. I'm reminded of the lyrics to Masters of War by Bob Dylan:

"Even Jesus would not forgive what you've done".

I see the lives already ruined and those still to come.

And the words of Dylan Thomas:

"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

RIP Jo Cox. You will not be forgotten.



And the people I feel sorriest for are the EU citizens who made the mistake of making the UK their home years ago and have been left "in limbo". Read their stories:

https://twitter.com/inlimbobrexit?lang=en
Book: https://www.ourbrexitblog.org/in-limbo-book/

I don't "hate" anybody, but I cannot forgive what they've done and their cruel disregard of others.

[grzegorz]

It's not anyones fault they have an opinion.
We had a vote, your opinion lost the vote. Pretty simple really. Democracy, get it ?

Actually I disagee.

From what I know (which isn't as much as you guys) those Brits living outside of the UK but in EU (who will be the most affected) did not get a vote.

How is that democracy?

Trust me, I am not saying the US is any better, far from it, but when you don't have one person one vote you don't have democracy.

[middleway]

How would a stoic deal with Brexit? I find the stupidity, callousness and mentality of the 'other side' unforgivable. And people on the other side would think of me in the same way. The problem is the same. How do you deal with these people?

Most people dont have such hate in them for other people who made a vote. If only you would look beyond your echo chamber maybe the hate would shrink a little.

For the board in general,

Just so you are aware, these people Graham feels 'most sorry for' are already secured in the UK if they want to stay, just as UK citizens are secured in the EU. This is in place and being used NOW but EU citizens.

Here's the facts (which can also be found in the threads graham has posted but doesnt seem to have read)

The solution is already in place and available to EU citizens.

Both the EU and the UK have agreed to this, even in a no deal situation.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

If you’re an EU citizen, you and your family will be able to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK after 30 June 2021. If your application is successful, you’ll get either settled or pre-settled status.

You may be able to stay in the UK without applying - for example, if you’re an Irish citizen or have indefinite leave to remain (ILR).

UK Gov site.

Both the EU and UK governments have confirmed that application is simply a formality to understand who is where and that it would be a very strange circumstance for individuals from the EU to be denied.

Of course we couldn't say the same about people from Non-EU nations... people who really need to opportunities afforded to them by the UK.

You’ll not usually be eligible to apply if you’re married to a British citizen and you’re from outside the EU

Uk Gov Site

Spreading fear and misinformation about uncertainty that is simply not there. These actions, the hate for the other, the constant demonizing are the very actions that put fear into the good hardworking people from foreign nations that we need here.

Its a perverse situation.

Individuals thinking they are moral by spreading things they disagree with but have not researched, that then confuse and scare the people they claim to care about, which they then blame on the people they hate.

The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own… – Epictetus

[middleway]

From what I know (which isn't as much as you guys) those Brits living outside of the UK but in EU (who will be the most affected) did not get a vote.

How is that democracy?

not true. Here is the actual situation.

If you are a UK citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter. You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote

Uk gov site.

The people you hear about who were unable to vote were 'British' citizens who had lived in foreign nations for over 15 years. Estimates are thats about 450,000 people. Not enough to sway the referendum result, and considering most of those who WERE eligible too, didn't, i suspect it wouldn't have changed a thing.

[grzegorz]

For me studying Stoicism has been two fold when it comes to politics.

On the one hand I don't get emotional about politics. I know what I know and understand what I understand. When someone disagrees with me I listen and learn and find that often times it is impossible to use an intelligent conversation to change someone's opinion because most political opinions are based on emotions and not an intellectual argument therefore it's pretty much pointless.

Yet on the other hand, because of stoicism I no longer feel the need to spend my time with people who do not share my values (unless I am at work because work is work) but now I have no problem being blunt because I don't care what people think about me and I don't feel the need to be surrounded by people who don't share my values (unless they are family) otherwise I would rather use my time for more productive things.

It is worth mentioning that I am talking about people on both sides from the left and right. I don't remove these people from my life but I don't prioritize people in my life just because years ago I had more in common with them. I easily leave the past in the past more and more and I am happier for it.

[middleway]

On the one hand I don't get emotional about politics. I know what I know and understand what I understand. When someone disagrees with me I listen and learn and find that often times it is impossible to use an intelligent conversation to change someone's opinion because most political opinions are based on emotions and not an intellectual argument so it's pretty much pointless.

This is precisely the reason i avoided this thread for so long (and i simply didnt look).

Yet on the other hand, because of stoicism I no longer feel the need to spend my time with people who do not share my values (unless I at work because work is work) but now I have no problem being blunt because I don't care what people think about me and I don't feel the need to be surrounded by people who don't share my values (unless they are family) otherwise I would rather use my time for more productive things.

Funnily enough i feel exactly the same. The problem i often encounter now however is that so few people occupy the center, preferring to be much more polarized. The obvious upshot of that is that to the Right Wingers i seem like a lefty, and to the lefties i seem like a right winger lol. When i find a fellow centrist its like a gold nugget! haha.

Time to use my time for more productive things! Thanks for the reminder.

[GrahamB]

How would a stoic deal with Brexit? I find the stupidity, callousness and mentality of the 'other side' unforgivable. And people on the other side would think of me in the same way. The problem is the same. How do you deal with these people?

Most people dont have such hate in them for other people who made a vote. If only you would look beyond your echo chamber maybe the hate would shrink a little.

For the board in general,

Just so you are aware, these people Graham feels 'most sorry for' are already secured in the UK if they want to stay, just as UK citizens are secured in the EU. This is in place and being used NOW but EU citizens.

Here's the facts (which can also be found in the threads graham has posted but doesnt seem to have read)

The solution is already in place and available to EU citizens.

Both the EU and the UK have agreed to this, even in a no deal situation.

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

If you’re an EU citizen, you and your family will be able to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK after 30 June 2021. If your application is successful, you’ll get either settled or pre-settled status.

You may be able to stay in the UK without applying - for example, if you’re an Irish citizen or have indefinite leave to remain (ILR).

UK Gov site.

Both the EU and UK governments have confirmed that application is simply a formality to understand who is where and that it would be a very strange circumstance for individuals from the EU to be denied.

Of course we couldn't say the same about people from Non-EU nations... people who really need to opportunities afforded to them by the UK.

You’ll not usually be eligible to apply if you’re married to a British citizen and you’re from outside the EU

Uk Gov Site

Spreading fear and misinformation about uncertainty that is simply not there. These actions, the hate for the other, the constant demonizing are the very actions that put fear into the good hardworking people from foreign nations that we need here.

Its a perverse situation.

Individuals thinking they are moral by spreading things they disagree with but have not researched, that then confuse and scare the people they claim to care about, which they then blame on the people they hate.

The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own… – Epictetus

Oh for god's sake. A cursory - even a cursory examination of the reality of the situation would reveal you are talking utter shite. You make it sound so simple. It's not.

The UK gov has repeatedly lied about settled status and used EU nationals as bargaining chips in negotiations.

Just read the actual experience of people:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... f17ee5cdc4

The sign up process is difficult to

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit- ... plications

You hear of people who have lived here for 40 years getting rejected. Computer says no. Leading to length appeals and more stress.

Yes, most will eventually be given settled status.

But the UK gov is making lists of people who are foreign. What happens to that data? How is it used? Where does this lead us? There's the previous history of governments putting people's names on lists

"We're just a few weeks into the Home Office pilot of its EU citizen settled status app, but there are already reasons for concern. After extensive consultation with users and the groups representing them, it's clear that the system has some potentially serious problems. Too many people are being given the wrong status, too many are facing demands for extra evidence, and too many are unable to use the app in the first place."

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/02 ... status-app



Yeah, but you don't care, do you?

[GrahamB]

"[...] when the deadline [to apply for Settled Status] expires in June 2021, several hundred thousand people who lawfully live in the UK may become illegal immigrants overnight. Could Britain be heading for a new Windrush moment?" ask Chris Morris

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002c ... L4Ch45tLXw

[middleway]

Oh for god's sake. A cursory - even a cursory examination of the reality of the situation would reveal you are talking utter shite. You make it sound so simple. It's not.

Look beyond the headlines. Look beyond your echo chamber. Its not simple to you ... because that would reduce your anger a bit.

The argument of the Huffpost article seems to be "What if people dont understand how to use a phone". But there is no suggestion that it will ONLY be via an android app. The App is a tool to tell you if you will be eligible... it is not the complete process itself you Moron. It is also the initial Pilot process.

So you post about a pilot system for testing the process. That is why it is a Pilot. from your own article. “no cases were refused”. The process is in 'Testing Phase' and isn't due to be fully implemented yet. So what on earth are you on about?? You are literally posting about the success of a phase that is actually designed to find problems with the process .... then complaining about problems with the process.

So AGAIN you are not looking into the facts. You are posting articles that support your position ... and weakly at best.

While stopping short of guaranteeing their future, Mr Raab said last week that it was "inconceivable" that non-UK citizens would be asked to leave whatever the outcome of current negotiations with the EU.

Immigration minister Caroline Nokes said the pilot was another step in making it easy for EU nationals to obtain settled status - enabling them to live and work in the UK on the same terms as now.

"From today, we are inviting a small group of EU citizens to make an application to secure their status," she said. "We will use their feedback to make any necessary adjustments ahead of the scheme being fully opened."

How much it costs
On 21 January the Prime Minister announced that there will be no fee when the scheme opens fully on 30 March 2019. Anyone who has applied already, or who applies and pays a fee during the test phases, will have their fee refunded. Details of the refunds process will be published shortly.

If you want to apply now, the fee (which will be refunded) is:

£65 if you’re 16 or over
£32.50 if you’re under 16

But yeh... lets keep looking at huffpost like it is suggestive of good reporting.

Your second article backs up what i said. The fear mongering of people like you is causing people to put their lives on hold when they really don't need too. They are scared because people like you, and the biased media you support, are making them scared. They could put their lives on hold... Or they could take action to get settled or pre-settled status now ... and go have that wedding.

Yeah, but you don't care, do you?

I truly do care. I am NOT against immigration or settle status of Europeans. I am not against EU citizens. I am against the EU. You don't have the eyes to see that. You are blinded by your pre-conceived notions.

The difference couldn't be any more clear between us fella.

I will get back to this project i am working on ... with a German company ... damn I'm such a racist!