BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:06 am

Shiva, the destroyer of worlds:

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While having drinks with Tibor Kalman one night, he told me, “When you make something no one hates, no one fucking loves it.” Bollocks to Brexit.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:58 am

Jesus Graham...more pictures lol. It is somewhat ironic that one of my favourite books is the bhagavad gita.... but onwards we go!

So i answer your two straw man's for the board ... You don't like the answers ... and you change the subject as a result. Shocker... ::)

Ok here's a comment specifically just for you.

It's clear to me that you believe yourself to be on the side of the 'good'. It is also clear to me that you have not actually looked at the issues I raise. All you do it roll out all the same tropes, when they are answered ... You move onto the next. I suspect you probably get some moral superiority charge from your echo chamber. Everyone patting each other on the back about how high and mighty they are ... and how lowly and stupid those bloody Nazi, Racist Brexiters are. :'( :'( :'(

What you don't seem to grasp is that I believe I am on on Side of the good too. The difference between us is I have investigated the things I post ...I am posting from my knowledge of the subject and from objective investigation ..not parroting some huff post article.

Steadilly that much is becoming clearer and clearer from this thread.

So don't pity me... When you started with the insults you motivated me. Unfortunately for you, you can't pick your online opponents, like you do your rolls. ;D
Last edited by middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 am

Change of governance can't and won't stop the western world's post industrial collapse. The seeds of this collapse were sown a long time ago via neo-liberal economics and parasitic Wall/Fleet St practices.

The issue is really if they go out with a bang, as the US seems to be delusionaly posturing for, or a whimper which is likely the UK case.

Better off discussing how to survive the coming collapse, or, you could leave all together like I did.

Power is returning to the east, go with the flow or get wiped out by the flood. Your choice, but this bickering is a pointles.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Giles on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:23 am

Greets to all in this debate, which constantly has the potential to be logically argued, civil, respectful.
;)
And thanks Peacedog, Grzegorz and Middleway for your thoughts. This is an issue I feel quite strongly about, almost passionately, also from my perspective as someone with dual British-German citizenship (as of 4 weeks or so).
There are plenty of points and arguments in the room now which I would like to address, some of which give me cause to potentially rethink on some issues. Some. But I can’t right now. I almost feel a bit embarrassed about it, but I have several hard deadlines for delivery of a lot of translation work between now and Friday – and thinking about and answering the various posts with any degree of depth is something I don’t have time for right now :-\ . Guess I should have considered that before posting what I did, but I just shot from the hip.
If this discussion is still more or less live when the weekend comes around, I’ll try to come back on this later. [salutes all and departs]
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 am

And thanks Peacedog, Grzegorz and Middleway for your thoughts. This is an issue I feel quite strongly about, almost passionately, also from my perspective as someone with dual British-German citizenship (as of 4 weeks or so).
There are plenty of points and arguments in the room now which I would like to address, some of which give me cause to potentially rethink on some issues. Some. But I can’t right now. I almost feel a bit embarrassed about it, but I have several hard deadlines for delivery of a lot of translation work between now and Friday – and thinking about and answering the various posts with any degree of depth is something I don’t have time for right now :-\ . Guess I should have considered that before posting what I did, but I just shot from the hip.
If this discussion is still more or less live when the weekend comes around, I’ll try to come back on this later. [salutes all and departs]


Good luck with the deadlines. I am currently on deadline, (strangely with A German Client of mine) so understand fully! :)
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Tom on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:49 am

Hey folks--

Please end the game of Badgering Tennis and allow other perspectives to contribute to this thread (thanks Giles) or it will get locked.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:39 pm

As far as the rise of the right in the EU and Brexit as Eric Idle from Monty Python stated on Bill Maher last Friday, I think it all comes down to Cambridge Analytica, Troll farms, and Putin in response to the stalemate in Ukraine. In Poland secret recordings got the legit candidates booted out of office and replaced by the far right who I don't endorse in any way shape or form but I do know they are making some good policy decisions for the "forgotten man" unlike here where we had a corporate takeover.

Greece has always been a problem and at this point I don't think we can blame the EU when you consider that many of the newer EU states haven't been plagued by the same issues
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:16 pm

middleway wrote:
I say this because I know very leftist people who think this way. They blame everything on the system and although they may be right about some things it seems that they want to throw out the whole system instead of trying to think of ways to fix it.


This is a very interesting observation as Left leaning politics tends to preference larger degrees of government control and more 'systems' in place.


Thanks for your feedback. It never really occured to me that this is the European outlook of the left. Across the pond (I hate that phrase) the left or liberals are the ones more concerned with civil rights, immigrants rights, abortion rights, workers' rights, criminal rights, human rights, an end to the draft, the right not to be detained, medical marijuana, etc...So they tend to be the ones who challenge the status quo or "the system."

In fact the right (here) often claims to be the law and order party and although they claim to be for less laws and regulations the fact is the laws and regulations they strip away are the ones that protect private citizens and are in favor of the corporations. In fact we can even see this in Trump's "wall" where the amount of land that will taken from private citizens if the wall is built will be equivalent to a small state since much of the border is defined as Rio Grande but since a wall cannot be built in the middle of a river there will be land North of the river that will essentially fall into the hands of Mexico. Therefore it's impossible here to claim that the Right is for less laws when you have private citizens and native Americans who lose their land and property rights to the government.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:15 pm

Folks on the left want more government control of the massively powerful wealthy person's and corporations in order to ensure more liberty and protection of civil and human rights of individual citizens.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:44 pm

MistyMonkeyMethod wrote:
Growth since 2009: China 139%; India 96%; Russia 36%, US 34%. UK 11.2%, Eurozone -2%.


Although I don't disagree with you about power going East I don't think money is everything.

The fact is for the average Chinese citizen, if they get their hand cut off by a machine in a factory in China how they are compensated and how their life is effected from then on is very different there as opposed to the EU.

Here for example the stock market is doing great but that doesn't mean the country as a whole is doing great.

Saying that I do believe the US could learn a lot from China especially in terms of helping poor countries in order to have a "beneficial" relationship with them as opposed to us where we believe the military solves all problems.

OTHO, the US debt is at an all time record of 22 trillion so yes don't live here.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:45 am

hanks for your feedback. It never really occured to me that this is the European outlook of the left. Across the pond (I hate that phrase) the left or liberals are the ones more concerned with civil rights, immigrants rights, abortion rights, workers' rights, criminal rights, human rights, the right not to be drafted, the right not to be detained, medical marijuana, etc...So they tend to be the ones who challenge the status quo or "the system."


Many of those reasons are why i would consider myself a 'left leaning centrist'. However, the further left we go on the political specturum, the more we move towards socialism and eventually communism. These things are reliant on 'big government' in order to function.

Folks on the left want more government control of the massively powerful wealthy person's and corporations in order to ensure more liberty and protection of civil and human rights of individual citizens.


Agreed. The inherent problem that we see, once we dig in, however is that often the modern Left also tend to massively distrust the government. This is especially true if a party is democratically voted into power that they do not support.

This causes a practical problem for the idea of government control over the massively wealthy or corporations. If this ideal was enacted by a leftist party, What happens if, in 4 years time a heavily right leaning government wins the vote and gains power. Then you have a very right leaning governemnet with huge volumes of resources at their desposal.

The only way that the more extreme leftist ideas function is if you remove possibility that all that money eventually falls into the wrong hands, this means removing democracy from the system, and we all know where that leads! I think as a concept re-distributing wealth is a noble idea, the problem is how you actually do it, and more importantly how you find the right people to manage it and ensure that it remains used for good.

In fact the right (here) often claims to be the law and order party and although they claim to be for less laws and regulations the fact is the laws and regulations they strip away are the ones that protect private citizens and are in favor of the corporations. In fact we can even see this in Trump's "wall" where the amount of land that will taken from private citizens if the wall is built will be equivalent to a small state since much of the border is defined as Rio Grande but since a wall cannot be built in the middle of a river there will be land North of the river that will essentially fall into the hands of Mexico. Therefore it's impossible here to claim that the Right is for less laws when you have private citizens and native Americans who lose their land and property rights to the government.


Agreed. Nothing that the right does in US politics seems to tally with the claim that they are interested in less restrictive laws and regulations. It seems that the outlook is very often based on aquissition rather than altruism.

As far as the rise of the right in the EU and Brexit as Eric Idle from Monty Python stated on Bill Maher last Friday, I think it all comes down to Cambridge Analytica, Troll farms, and Putin in response to the stalemate in Ukraine. In Poland secret recordings got the legit candidates booted out of office and replaced by the far right who I don't endorse in any way shape or form but I do know they are making some good policy decisions for the "forgotten man" unlike here where we had a corporate takeover.


Well worth listening to that podcast with Sam harris, The russian troll farms were playing each side off each other. Setting up Black Lives Matter Pages and Blue Lives matter pages and basically just seeding Chaos across social platforms. Very clever of them, and an explination, at least in part, for the huge divisions in society that have appeared in the last 5 year.

Thanks.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:10 am

Hi Gregorz,

For me, there's a lot more to it than the past growth. Future growth projection for the next 10 years is around 50+% for Asia in general (not just China), and around 12% for all of the West combined.

There are other major issue too, opiod epidemic, massive antidepressants use, high suicide rates, massive inequality, typhus and hepatitis epidemics amongst the growing masses of homeless, labour commoditization (destruction of the middle class), degeneration and massive psy ops via media, hyper individualism, destruction of family structures, societal fracturing in to left/right and all sort of other niches.

The last point in particular, is a way for government to curtail civil liberties and grab more power, they are stocking internal conflict for their own benefit, their power grab, the mob mentality (read mass stupidity/ignorance) of the various groups plays in to their hands. The Russia thing, largely bullshit with a tiny bit of truth, but that tiny bit is nothing new. Russia didn't cause these divisions, blaming an external player for massive internal problems is idiotic and only adds to the problem as it distracts from the actual power grab right in front of our eyes.

Besides, Reps and Dems elite, live and play in the same places, always have. We see only what they want us to see, a rouse, like a magician's slight of hand, Russia is part of that.

The main pupet master of the US is Israel, has been for the longest amount of time and wields the most control, Russia is a drop in the ocean by comparison. It's interesting to consider why Israel has never been called out and then look at the expenditure of their lobby and the strength Israel aligned institution wield, including over the Christian right and their fantastic religious nonsense. Last but not least their intelligence services, Russia is often their mask, perhaps not so strange when you consider 1/3 of Israelis hold Russian citizenship and almost all Russian oligarchs hold Israeli citizenships.

Don't know too much about China's welfare system, but I do know some of their medical care is free. Also, considering their growth potential and development, it's very likely they will have better social care, just like they are already the global leader in green tech. Strong economy, growth, development are all good signs for the future. Much of the West (bar Germany in some regard) is largely diametric to this. I spend quite a lot of time in China for work and I have never seen the speed and rate of development like this anywhere else. The technological aspects of that country are as impressive as they are intimidating.

In terms of US debt, we have past the point of no return already. The debt is not serviceable under any scenario, debt will keep growing and our ability to pay the interest alone decreases every year. The end result of this, will be the death of the dollar as a reserve currency and if it happens very quickly, though unlikely it will be quick, the sort of hyperinflation that we could see will make Zimbabwe look good.

Stock markets had been doing good, but as soon as there was any indication Fed/Central Banks printing presses slowed, the bears bit a massive chunk out of it. Now we are in the twilight zone, can't print forever and can't bullshit the markets forever either, the bubbles will be popping sooner rather than later, considering the level of Wall St contribution to GDP, the impact will be massive.

We are where we are because of neo-liberal economics and parasitic banker elite. 2008 was just a warning shot.

We have seen this before too, French revolution, Russian revolution, Soviet collapse all share some traits with where we are now. When the government doesn't take care of its people, the elite hide in hedonism (don't see out the palace walls), shit hits the fan and everyone gets covered. For neo-liberal economic practices, an extreme anything goes example ws post Soviet collapse, Western neo-liberal advisors and the privatisation that came with it created their oligarchy and the likes of Bowder in the West. Massive resource theft basically. The result, depopulation by around 10 million in around 10 years, as a result of drugs, disease, crime etc all under Russia's Trump equivalent, Boris Yeltsin.

For those staying put, buy physical gold if you can. If you can't hold it in your hand, you don't own it. Don't trust the banks, if you haven't already figured that out post 2008. Guns and ammo will go a long way too.

As for Britain, leave EU or not, is not the question, same shit there, power grab, privitisation, middle class destruction, neo-liberal theft, all easier and more manageable than the US. And at least the US has resources, Britain is largely barren, no globalisation, no Britain, can't survive on its own in current form, will fracture in to fuedal states and back to the dark ages they go. Their strength has always lay outside their borders in a globalised trade system for which they were thr arbiters, now their elite has turned inwards and feeding of its people, much like the US elite, in fact its probably the same bunch of inbred elite families.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:11 am

Economic growth doesn't come from nothing. If the US is any example, it's easy to compare the amount of goods purchased from China and Mexico with the amount of goods purchased from Europe. The ability to out-produce that comes from manpower and industrial capacity is simply an advantage. There is no economic reason why Europe (as a whole) should be able to compete with China or the US (if we're just comparing growth figures). The reason for its previous growth was the rise of empires. That's what caused the first world war a century ago.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:40 am

As to the more left you go then the more communist you go, I disagree. Canada is to the left of the US and not communist state. To me, communism almost always becomes an autocracy much like Belorussia where the benefits and money all go to the top which incidentally is the same thing that happens in an extreme capitalism.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:48 am

Yep, all extremism, in all forms is destructive and dangerous. Same as how power always corrupts and turns those who wield it in to demons, or almost all, apparently the sage kings of ancient China had a grasp on this, but well I suppose we won't know. Still, I'd be quite happy to get a potential leaders and put them through a 'dark night of the soul' type experience, that may help.
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