Bao wrote:Tingjin: listening skill. Yi might be useful for practice, but, IME, for real use it's too slow. Better to let your tingjin decide what to do. It knows and can decide by an instant. ".
Bao wrote:Tingjin IS to see. Your tingjin knows what to do. If you use this knowledge, you never have to think, plan or wonder about what to do. You'll know what to to and will be able to act instantly right upon touch.
windwalker wrote:ting-jin developed, allows one to act before touch, at touch in most cases its to late.
windwalker wrote:Bao wrote:Tingjin IS to see. Your tingjin knows what to do. If you use this knowledge, you never have to think, plan or wonder about what to do. You'll know what to to and will be able to act instantly right upon touch.
ting-jin developed, allows one to act before touch, at touch in most cases its to late.
the skill can be used actively or passively, its developed passively, used actively.
Bao wrote:Not a fan of those two vids. Not much following and guiding. And not much body method either. Sorry Charles.
charles wrote:oragami_itto wrote:I'd be delighted, but I'm afraid I need your help. You're much more knowledgeable and articulate than me, so if you could describe your understanding of what's happening I could more easily tell you where the models may differ or overlap.
Based on what you wrote, "What I've found is that I get two distinctly different results depending on whether or not I guide the qi through the proper sequence. Without it I may muscle someone out of their root, but with it they just float out without much effort on my part", I thought you were describing your personal experience rather than an explanation of what is being shown in the video. I was just asking to have you describe that experience, specifically, what guiding the qi through the proper sequence is.
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And now I will. I just had to get a clear idea of upon what you are basing your opinion and understanding. To coin a phrase, tell me what you saw and I'll tell you what you missed.I wasn't able to find the video I was looking for. However, here are two of students practicing a basic exercise that explicitly teaches the skill in the OP video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdZNK_MCiKo
The two guys at about :45 understood the exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieqTgBMBQc
In short, in the exercise, your partner pushes you three times. You don't do anything but get pushed. You study the timing of the pushes. On the fourth, you catch the partner's push before it has fully "arrived". The result is that the partner pushes himself backwards as he "extends"/"finishes" the push. It's all in the timing and relative position and is not difficult to do with a little practice. It has little to do with "qi" or "the mind" or "intent" and can be taught to nearly any novice in a few minutes. You can push yourself backwards if practicing by pushing against a wall.
After sufficient practice, one learns to time and position it just right against a push, without needing the "setup" to find the timing. It becomes second nature, just as in the OP video.
charles wrote:That's the point: it isn't about following, guiding, body method or other "internals". It is a relatively simple skill or technique that doesn't require a lot of "internal" to make it work. Timing and distance. One can put "internals" into it or not, but doing so isn't necessary to make it work, at least in this specific example. It's a specifically timed disruption of the opponent's action.
Bao wrote: if you compare your clip, they are stiff and have very little control of what they are doing. They do what they do with arm strength, not by transferring mass. And the timing is not very good.
Control and refinement, as well as making it more effective and efficient demands something else....
Control, sensitivity, balance, perfection of timing... This is exactly why we should “put in ‘internals’ into it”. It will not only make it work, but make it work much better.
oragami_itto wrote:There's a fella at around 1:30 in the second video that expresses a part of it, but his direction is still different.
So how is it different. He demonstrates two variations on the same concept so let's address them separately to keep things simple.
In the first example, as the push comes in, I follow the incoming force to join with the opponent's mass. The force of the push transfers energy into my body, I use that energy to intensify a wave of compression enabled by relaxation from the center of my body to the extremities of my hands and feet. I also visualize compressing the opponent's structure where it has potential to be compressed, based on what I know through listening.
When I have reached maximum compression, a wave of expansion or release starts from my feet and travels through my core through the point of contact into the opponent's body which I simultaneously visualize releasing.
The compression and expansion describe a vertical circle. The compression cycle is like pressing down on a stack of milk caps, then moving your hand forward or backward an inch to allow the expansion cycle to happen on its own energy.
The second variation is actually much simpler. It's not as simple as shunting in a straight line, it's an alive redirection in multiple directions to cause the compression and expansion cycle in the same way in the opponent only, all through manipulation at and through the point of contact to redirect ANY movement, conscious or unconscious through stick/adhere/join/follow.
charles wrote:At the very end of the video, he does something different, unbalancing the opponent to the side, a different action.
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