Kentucky Ayhusaka

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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:30 pm

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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby vadaga on Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:50 am

Thanks Wiesek, your story made me smile.

I have a couple of friends interested in going to Peru to take ayahuasca... not me though... if I want to feel near death I can just take an ice plunge in the sea and save on the plane tix :)
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby meeks on Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:10 pm

So is there anyone on this board able to share an opinion that starts with "I've worked with aya extensively" rather than "I heard on t.v...." ?

I'd love to hear their perspective
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Peacedog on Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:00 pm

I've dealt with extensively with three individuals who suffered permanent brain damage from a single exposure to this substance. All three travelled to South America to try it.

Inability to focus, severe damage to short term memory and virtually no recovery over time in all three. They are basically destroyed as human beings. None of them will ever work again or be productive members of society. Two of the three had been fairly driven, and successful, individuals until this happened.

People playing with this compound are risking their ability to lead a meaningful life. The risk is simply not worth any perceived benefits.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:49 am

That's tragic! I wish them well. I am certainly am not advocating this for everyone but for some it has given them perspective and helped them turn their lives around.

"I know a guy" who used to do other similar things and he stopped because people around him started having problems along the journey. No one should be in denial of what can happen when you put a substance in your body and if someone isn't interested then people should respect that.

To be completely honest I think its wonderful that some people can find themselves without the use of any substances.

A couple of the episodes are now up online by the way.

Watch "Kentucky Ayahuasca S01E08 Elizabeth Donavan and Emma 480p x264 mSDeztv" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/_jCACtFTe60

Watch "Taking Ayahuasca to Heal Addiction and Depression (Full Episode)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/-88xpl-5ro0
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:13 am

I've had no experience with ayahuasca, but I have had experience with other hallucinogens. The one thing I can say about them is that the physical and psychological effects and side-effects depend on the individual. These drugs will be unsafe for some people. And, there's no way to tell how it will affect you.

Otoh, people have used ayahuasca for thousands of years, and many claim to receive benefits from them. So, it might be considered a crapshoot, but it's not a 50/50 chance of becoming insane or enlightened. The real question is why you are taking the risk. If it's just to get high, there are other alternatives. Though, in fact, all of us know people who've destroyed themselves physically or psychologically from non-hallucinogenic drugs, like alcohol, heroin, meth, or prescription drugs.

I don't know why I haven't done hallucinogens for the past 40+ years. I've had friends who've committed suicide while under the influence, and others who were never the same after taking it. One who was involuntarily "dosed" at a party. Otoh, I never had a bad trip, and I could argue that taking those hallucinogens made it unlikely that I would experiment or over-indulge with any drug.

Anyway, this was interesting afa negative effects: https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/ayahuasca-addiction/
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Peacedog on Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:47 pm

Steve,

Thanks for the link.

What follows is a bit of a rant, but this is the rsf…. ;D

My main criticism of the "legalize it" crows for most things is their intentionally leaving out the risks involved and what happens when it goes bad.

Frequently, this same group will come up with a false equivalency argument such as "alcohol kills far more people every year." While technically true, (a) I've never heard of anyone dying, or suffering from an irreversible and untreatable disease like schizophrenia, from taking a single drink, (b) people can be functioning alcoholics for long periods of time and assuming they never drank so much as to cause liver failure or malnutrition (which causes brain damage over time) if you dry them out they are fine, and (c) alcohol is used by a far larger group than any of the illegal substances by virtue of it being legal.

My problems with things like ayahuasca include the fact that a single exposures can result in severe damage to people that is frequently impossible to treat and frequently the issue it professes to treat has other less dangerous options.

The fact that most of the groups pushing this stuff are really just using it to get high further annoys me. All of the "plant based medicine" people I've ever met were either junkies, drug dealers hiding behind hippie bullshit or both. While legitimate, and qualified practitioners, may be out there, all of the ones I've met were bullshit artists who didn't care if they hurt someone as long as they got their money. I'm very suspicious of documentaries on this not only become of the often blatant biases of the people making the documentary, but also due to selective editing/presentation of those being presented. There is a reason why no one respects the Kardashians.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the societies that used these compounds "for thousands of years" didn't really care if it killed or permanently disabled a certain percentage of the people who used it. I've never been around any tribal society that values human life in the way the modern Western democracies do. If you die doing something, well it's general viewed as sad, but "meh." All of them are hyperviolent societies by modern standards in which people frequently die for any variety of reasons that the locals can do nothing about. I cannot imagine that was any different in the past.

And finally, as a long term meditative practitioner, I find the use of hallucinogens completely unnecessary and almost always a tool of the lazy who are unwilling to do the work.

All of this may come across as unnecessarily harsh and I am happy for those that benefit from a successful application of these compounds. But the people pushing this stuff are never there to clean up the pieces when it goes bad. Those broken people wind up on my doorstep. And frequently I can do nothing for them.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Well, the subject is ayahuasca, and I've never taken it; so, I'd never recommend it to anyone. In fact, I'd advise against it for some of the same reasons you give. It'd be the same if someone asked me about crack. I've never used it, and I know of people who didn't survive the first dose. It's a risk.

Afa tribal societies, there are loads of studies on mental illness in indigenous societies. I don't think western societies do much better with mental illnesses that naturally arise from biological causes than indigenous societies did before contact with them. For one thing, it'd be hard to know. It's only safe to surmise that there had to have been individuals with mental illnesses. We may be able to put names on illnesses, and prescribe treatments. But, we're talking about mental illnesses unnaturally induced from using ayahuasca. It's only possible to speculate on what happened before contact with "civilized societies."

I agree that doing it "to get high" is, imo, doing it for the wrong reason. I think looking for spiritual enlightenment or a religious experience is a better reason, if it works for that. And, I don't think it's common in western tradition, and has nothing to do with ayahuasca. Sure, there are definitely people who sell the lure of enlightenment (tm) to others for profit. That, too, is western tradition, isn't it? The hippies, the profiteers, and the fake gurus.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Peacedog on Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:07 pm

Yeah, I'd agree with all of that. Particularly with regard to the people with less than pure intentions regarding the use of these compounds.

I'm a little sensitive to the whole issue as I end up dealing with the truly desperate. It may simply, statistically, not be that common. I just see more of it. And it's absolutely soul crushing when you can't help.

As to the tribal people I've dealt with, it comes down to economics. These groups have all been very poor. Poverty really limits their ability to access much in the way of help. This results in making some pretty brutal decisions on how to deal with the sick, injured and disabled. Again, this is relatively uncommon in most parts of the world today. I've just been around it a lot due to my former profession.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:27 pm

If someone here says that psychedelics have caused schizophrenia I believe them but I am skeptical that the psychedelics are root cause. A bit like anti-vaxxers saying that vaccines changed their kids.

I do believe in the scientific method.

LSD and Schizophrenia: Does "Acid" Cause Mental Illness? - Mental Health Daily

https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/03/2 ... l-illness/

If the native cultures of the Americas are so easily discounted because they seem to have little or no respect for human life yet were almost completely massacred, given diseases and decimated by Western cultures to steal their land, the same people who supposedly respect human life, then it might be interesting to note that ergot (which is found in LSD) was used by the Greeks and Romans who produced many of the greatest thinkers of western culture. You know western culture the culture that gave us the two world wars, the nuclear bomb among other things but deeply respects and values human life.

The Psychedelic Eleusinian Mysteries of Ancient Greece | Alyson Dunlop's Blog

https://alysondunlop.com/2013/07/18/the ... nt-greece/

As far as legality, everything in Kentucky Ayahuasca is completely legal in Kentucky.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby meeks on Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 am

Check out the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. They seem to be doing a lot of good work for helping people with long term PTSD using psychedelics as a medicine. They're currently in stage 3 trials.
One of the lecturers from 'maps' was saying traditional ptsd treatment has an average 22% success rate but they're having a 78% success rate with it.
As far as ayahuasca, usually when you hear about people being messed up by it in the jungle, it means the people they went to are not real healers and are adding hallucinogenic substances to it so the person thinks they're getting a real treatment. That's where you start hearing stories of people running off into the jungle during ceremony.
Also if that person has schizophrenia it is strongly recommended they don't go anywhere near it - ever. If the person has used any of a variety of prescription (and natural supplements) medication, particularly an antidepressant in the last month it is considered dangerous. Keep in mind 70% of Americans are on prescription medications and 1 in 6 are on psychiatric medication.
So there is a point where it's more about the consumer and their "medical diet" than it is about legitimate plant medicine use.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby grzegorz on Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:22 am

In one episode they kick a man out with addiction issues. He was told to stay clean for 5 days but he didn't. On day 1 they take a low dose to see how they react and on day 2 they take a large dose to get the complete experience. After day 1 the individual was sent home out of concern for his safety and also because had something gone wrong the people of that Native American Church would have been shut down. Seems to me that tourists going to South America are probably taking much greater risks.

For me the show is helpful, not because I am looking to be next but it reminds me how I too can put certain things in perspective and in the past especially after seeing the types of histories these people are dealing with. Sad to see that so many women on there are victims of sexual abuse.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby meeks on Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:10 am

Fortunately, I don't think you get many drug addicts spending thousands of dollars to travel to Peru just to get high. Cost alone is a natural filter.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of the societies that used these compounds "for thousands of years" didn't really care if it killed or permanently disabled a certain percentage of the people who used it. I've never been around any tribal society that values human life in the way the modern Western democracies do. If you die doing something, well it's general viewed as sad, but "meh." All of them are hyperviolent societies by modern standards in which people frequently die for any variety of reasons that the locals can do nothing about. I cannot imagine that was any different in the past.


I.... don't know how to respond to this... this... umm... purely stereotypical summary and have yet to meet a tribal society in South America that fits this opinion you hold of them. I'll just smh and think "did he really just say that?", while keeping in mind these are also no longer 'lost tribes' but tribes that have integrated with 'modern western approaches' to become local communities/small towns that are part of modern society.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby I-mon on Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:07 pm

Ayahuasca is interesting stuff. Like all psychedelics, what you get out of it can vary depending on all sorts of things - the dosage, the mix of substances in the brew (it varies considerably), the environment, your attitude or intentions, obviously your brain and body chemistry, but then also obviously but much less talked about the effects of psychedelics depend very much on what you *do* with your mind, breath, body, attention, awareness, voice, imagination, etc, while you're under the influence.

So, people can go in with specific intentions, to learn something, to feel into themselves and try to sort out or get some clarity around some physical or psychological ailment, to pray or worship or commune with some aspect of existence, or whatever. Or they can go in blind, and maybe they'll have a great time and learn some deep shit, or maybe they'll get stuck in a panic cycle or some bullshit nonsensical or self-destructive thought loop and do some lasting damage and be seriously traumatised for years.

The point that is usually missed in all discussions of psychedelics is that using each different substance is actually a skill, or a range of skills. How to focus, how to stay calm, how to truly relax and let go of mental and physical tensions, how and when to use the body in different ways (absolute stillness, assuming different postures, different breathing patterns, getting up and moving, dancing in different ways, exploring the environment), all that different stuff. In some cultures there are or have been whole arts and sciences based around this stuff (e.g. "yoga" with its combination of posture, movement, breath, attention and awareness exercises, simple to complex visualisation, vocalisations and mantra practice, ego dissolution and reconstruction practices, linking of verbal and nonverbal states, etc), but these days most people are flying blind so it's quite understandable that there will be casualties.
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Re: Kentucky Ayhusaka

Postby Peacedog on Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:07 pm

Meeks,

Please keep in mind that when my people deployed to an area it was because things were going badly and usually getting worse.

All of the tribal people I dealt with were in places like Colombia (the world's longest running insurgency at the time), Guatemala/Peru (recovering from long standing wars), the Middle East (which was in the middle of a really bad situation), Kashmir (with active cross border insurgents causing problems) and northern Thailand (where the ethnic divisions between the Thais and tribal groups caused a lot of problems).

The situation present in all of these places was less than ideal with lots of outside agitators looking to cause trouble.

You may simply have been witness to a very different situation than I was.

I could give many examples of the kinds of problems I saw, but the reality was very simple. These were desperately poor people in the middle of large amounts of instability. Bad things happen frequently in that kind of environment.

Best,

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