Steve James wrote:How do you think YLC learned? Who's improved it? How did he learn?
But for some reason we seem to argue these days that if you do form, you magically transform from bookish nerd into what?
Appledog wrote:Taste of Death wrote:Taiji forms and push hands are two separate things. How does one learn yielding while doing the forms? If one wants to be good at push hands one should practice push hands with a skilled partner.
Can you please explain from what perspective you are saying this? Are you a professional Tai Chi teacher, or are you saying this from the perspective of a student? I'm curious mainly because not only are you wrong, but you're wrong in a way that even players form other martial artists could correct you on, and directly so after you have been told by someone that they (forms and PH) depend on one another. The reason I am asking is to promote a discussion where we can share our reasoning, and not an argument, so I hope you take it in that respect And to answer your question is very simple. You learn to yield in the form by being shown where the application of a segment is to yield. Actually practicing that is the push hands level, and you may not know this but this also answers your question; How can you practice yielding in push hands, if you do not know where the application is to yield? And the other side of the coin (stating it to underline the point everyone seems not to understand) How can you learn to push in push hands if you do not know when to push? It is not as easy as pushing when you go forward. That is not even really what push hands is about.
First you need to learn the form because that is where you learn to express the energies properly. Then you base push hands off that. If you do it backwards you will damage your ability to express proper energy and can develop bad habits which can be difficult (or even (theoretically, under some conditions)) impossible to recover from.
Laodan wrote:"I find those that only do solo forms generally lack the awareness of when their joints are properly aligned and stable. Most people need their postures to be challenged by forces other than gravity in order to learn this. It requires being pushed and pulled from various angles and with varying intensities to check one’s structure/alignment. Form alone does not seem to be enough for most practitioners. They may feel comfortable, but this may just be a feeling based on habit rather than being correct."
TasetofDeath wrote:"CIMA's are about body conditioning not forms. Without the proper conditioning the forms are empty"
Bao wrote:Laodan wrote:"I find those that only do solo forms generally lack the awareness of when their joints are properly aligned and stable. Most people need their postures to be challenged by forces other than gravity in order to learn this. It requires being pushed and pulled from various angles and with varying intensities to check one’s structure/alignment. Form alone does not seem to be enough for most practitioners. They may feel comfortable, but this may just be a feeling based on habit rather than being correct."
Exactly.TasetofDeath wrote:"CIMA's are about body conditioning not forms. Without the proper conditioning the forms are empty"
What is body conditioning? In IMA, it's claimed that the conditioning and overall body development is from internal practice. Practice from inside out. So there is certainly very different meanings on what is body conditioning and to what extent you should condition your body. In some styles, conditioning goes to the extreme, the practitioners hit their bodies with hard objects and cause their hands to become misshaped, deformed and lose sensitivity.
Taste of Death wrote:Bao wrote:Laodan wrote:"I find those that only do solo forms generally lack the awareness of when their joints are properly aligned and stable. Most people need their postures to be challenged by forces other than gravity in order to learn this. It requires being pushed and pulled from various angles and with varying intensities to check one’s structure/alignment. Form alone does not seem to be enough for most practitioners. They may feel comfortable, but this may just be a feeling based on habit rather than being correct."
Exactly.TasetofDeath wrote:"CIMA's are about body conditioning not forms. Without the proper conditioning the forms are empty"
What is body conditioning? In IMA, it's claimed that the conditioning and overall body development is from internal practice. Practice from inside out. So there is certainly very different meanings on what is body conditioning and to what extent you should condition your body. In some styles, conditioning goes to the extreme, the practitioners hit their bodies with hard objects and cause their hands to become misshaped, deformed and lose sensitivity.
Body conditioning/method (zhuangtai) is developed through zhan zhuang. Hard training develops a hard body rather than a supple, responsive one. One can do both but most people try to combine the two. They are separate but can be complimentary depending on what kind of training. I would consider dragon stepping to be hard training but something that compliments rather than detracts from whatever art one practices. The big difference is internal training is done with the mind and intent. As an example, I "intend" to walk but I don't move. I do it internally by using intent. I walk in place without moving externally. At first one can feel nothing because one has not developed the ability to understand what "intent" means in relation to CIMA. Over time some get it and some don't. One reaches for the apple hanging from the tree while standing still. There is no visible movement that one would call reaching. One reaches using one's "intent". A training partner can feel this "reaching". If not, keep trying. Anyone can do it if they get out of their own way which is either a case of mind over matter or mind over mind. It doesn't make much sense until one can do it. Some may call this explanation a "reach" but CIMA explanations are like that. We need to touch hands for it to make sense.
Steve James wrote:Deviating from the tradition is fine. There might not even be a reason to do the form at all. However, there's no reason to call the result of one's deviation tcc, either. Doing it the traditional way is simply that, the traditional way.
Fwiw, I'm not sure that anyone who hasn't learned the form first can teach push hands. And, if he can, then there's no reason he can't teach san shou and the weapons. Part of my point is that I teach the way I learned. I've heard people say they know of others who just do zz for a year, etc., before they learn anything else. I'm sure they say that it's preparation, even jibengong. I'm also pretty sure that, if nothing else, doing so will have an effect on the practitioner's mind as well as his body.
I do think that --in the old days-- it was traditional to make students do things that seemed to have nothing to do with fighting, or even martial arts. That was a test of how much the student was willing to faithfully work. It could be true that the "secrets" can all be taught in a day. But, whether the student is mentally and physically is another thing.
That said, I think it's relatively easy to take someone off the street and teach him a phs pattern. If it's training for a competition, it's even easier. After a few times, they'd get the idea. Win or lose, it would be push hands. Anyway, I'm not against doing that. It's perfectly alright to do things non-traditionally. But, then it's your thing
All I am saying is that if someone finds another art that they feel meshes with their taijiquan roushou/tuishou and that integration is solid, use it, develop it and make it your own while showing the versatility of martial consciousness.
Tuishou with yiquan, tuishou with wing chun or even a hybrid of wingchun, tuishou, yiquan, etc with the skill equal to anyone out there.
Taste of Death wrote:
Body conditioning/method (zhuangtai) is developed through zhan zhuang. Hard training develops a hard body rather than a supple, responsive one. One can do both but most people try to combine the two. They are separate but can be complimentary depending on what kind of training. I would consider dragon stepping to be hard training but something that compliments rather than detracts from whatever art one practices. The big difference is internal training is done with the mind and intent. As an example, I "intend" to walk but I don't move. I do it internally by using intent. I walk in place without moving externally. At first one can feel nothing because one has not developed the ability to understand what "intent" means in relation to CIMA. Over time some get it and some don't. One reaches for the apple hanging from the tree while standing still. There is no visible movement that one would call reaching. One reaches using one's "intent". A training partner can feel this "reaching". If not, keep trying. Anyone can do it if they get out of their own way which is either a case of mind over matter or mind over mind. It doesn't make much sense until one can do it. Some may call this explanation a "reach" but CIMA explanations are like that. We need to touch hands for it to make sense.
northern_mantis wrote:1/ A very basic exercise to begin your development towards IP
2/ A way of demonstrating you are developing IP as a result of the above
3/ What should be felt/seen as the recipient/observer of the above demonstration
4/ Ideas for combat application
What is called traditional today (based on experience, understanding (and my lack thereof) and practice) lacks martial conditioning and therfore said art is no longer martial but a different animal together.
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