Pivital Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Pivital Question

Postby Walk the Torque on Wed May 15, 2019 6:32 pm

So, after honing all action, power and sensitivity in my center (abdomen) for years, I've stated experimenting again with the use of the spine as a pivotal point from which to issue. I haven't given up on the center but am finding increased power and speed from doing this. and was just wondering if others have experimented (of course they have ::)) with this?

Konn
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Peacedog on Wed May 15, 2019 7:06 pm

Generally speaking that is the difference I've found between tai chi (the ball in the abdomen) and xing yi (a whipping wave like motion based in the spine). People like to argue about this for some unknown reason and I've seen tai chi with spine wave power as well. But it doesn't really look like tai chi when performed that way.

Short answer as to differences reactive power using the ball in the stomach works well, but is slow and hard to implement. Tends to be smoother when working the form. The ball technique tends to result in a rounder body type as well.

Spine wave power is faster and hits harder, but has less of a rebounding effect and doesn't throw the mass of its user into the target as well. Tends to be jerkier, particularly in the beginning, and more explosive when working the form. The spine wave technique tends to lean people out.

Regarding body composition this is just a trend and I've seen exceptions of course.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Walk the Torque on Wed May 15, 2019 7:33 pm

Excellent answer PeaceDog,

I spent a little time trying to integrate the two but found in order to do so I had to minimize the movement of the torso so it did not help with agility (so far anyway).

Thanks for your answer anyway.

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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Trick on Wed May 15, 2019 9:34 pm

yes that was a neat explainaition by peacedog. from my own feeling when practicing for example just the very basic santishi and some basic tongbeiquan, both lower abdomen and spine are present/work together..the dai-xinyi seem clearly to work both too
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 12:02 am

People like to argue about this for some unknown reason and I've seen tai chi with spine wave power as well. But it doesn't really look like tai chi when performed that way.


I don't know, IME if it looks tai chi-ish or not depends on how articulated or independent the spine movement is. XY for instance can use spinal wave quite independent from the rest of the body. In Tai Chi, spine movement should be a part of Kai/He and babei hanxiong. If you coordinate spine movement integrated with whole body movement, the spine can not be very articulated. So in Tai Chi, it won't look like a very big movement and it won't be used to wind up the body in a very distinct manner. So it can (should) be there, but is not as visible as it can be in XYQ or BGZ. That is my experience at least.

If you look at Fu style Tai Chi, you can see a very visible use of the spine. In Yang and Wu (Jianquan) styles, there can also be a quite distinct spine movement, but often in conjunction to raising and sinking, or together with leaning and returning to neutral posture.

This is mostly what I would mean by spine movement in Tai Chi. Here the whole trunk works like a pump. I at least think it looks like Tai Chi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds

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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Trick on Thu May 16, 2019 2:14 am

from how i practice taijiquan form(yang) i focus on an simuntainiously all around awareness and in that way a specific back wave can not be very pronounced. some players maybe make a distinct divide of forward, back, left and right with an emphasis on the forward which would make the spine move more visiable, but then i would say its not taiji anymore.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 16, 2019 2:38 am

Interesting choice of the word "pivotal".

I think it is a pivotal question around which you can start to ask "what are internal arts?"

I've found that the functional usage between 'modern' XingYi and Tai Chi to be completely different. In Tai Chi you are normally keeping a wide base, not much stepping, moving from the dantien, using the power of the ground. In XingYi you are doing active stepping, much more momentum and using the flexibility of the spine to produce power. However, if you can trace things back to a common ancestor (Squatting monkey in Dai family XYLH is a good indicator) you can find these two are perhaps best thought of as different manifestations of the same thing.

I've found that if you start from looking at opening and closing as the common denominator between the two, you can see how they are both using the same tech, but expressing it in different ways.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Steve Rowe on Thu May 16, 2019 6:08 am

I'd say it's difficult to separate them. The abdomen is the ball of manipulating muscle that the spine sits in - which is connected to the rest of the core as defined in Tom Myer's deep front line, this core is rooted at the feet, manipulated heavily at the waist making the spine open, close, stretch, connect, twist and bow sending the power out through the limbs. If you look at the Yang Family exercises the specifically work these movements to develop the lines of power through the body.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Trick on Thu May 16, 2019 6:42 am

the squatting monkey found in Dai-xylh is an old exercise that work perfectly with the lower abdomen and back and open and close. the recuirements both physical and mentaly to do it correct was the very core of ancient (nothern?)chinese boxing methods, also in what was to become taijiquan....i also even see trace of that exercise in the opening moves in some of the older okinawan shorin(shaolin)-ryu karate katas(forms) but some very important ingredients are missing, the (correct)squatting for example :) interesting with this is that the more "modern" shotokan has it more correct in one of their katas than the older okinawan counterpart, but of course without knowing about its true meaning its stll not correctly done.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 16, 2019 7:20 am

Squatting monkey/Neigong basics:

https://vimeo.com/241455371
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby northern_mantis on Thu May 16, 2019 8:21 am

Most useful thread in a long time! Really interesting stuff to experiment with that has been hard earned by experienced people.

If somebody could just correct the spelling error in the title we have internet perfection (unless it is an Americanism?!).

EDIT: Australianism?! Just noticed the location of the OP.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby D_Glenn on Thu May 16, 2019 9:02 am

Walk the Torque wrote:So, after honing all action, power and sensitivity in my center (abdomen) for years, I've stated experimenting again with the use of the spine as a pivotal point from which to issue. I haven't given up on the center but am finding increased power and speed from doing this. and was just wondering if others have experimented (of course they have ::)) with this?

Konn

If you’re on facebook search for my group called CIMA. The Ball, lumbar, sacrum and tailbone are all intertwined.

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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 1:07 pm

Steve Rowe wrote:I'd say it's difficult to separate them. The abdomen is the ball of manipulating muscle that the spine sits in - which is connected to the rest of the core as defined in Tom Myer's deep front line, this core is rooted at the feet, manipulated heavily at the waist making the spine open, close, stretch, connect, twist and bow sending the power out through the limbs.


agreed that it's all connected and hard to separate. That is what I tried to verbalize but you did it better than me. :) Some XY schools use the middle dantian as center for spine movement, so maybe differences are more a matter of what is used as the center of movement, and not what is the center of the body.

Though I don't understand why Myers is very important or special in this context. Fascia is quite easy to understand through anatomy and much of what he does is already found in IMA.

There are thick layers of fascia in both the lower and upper back that cross connect the body. So coiling is a natural way of connecting the body for whole body movement, and twisting and coiling is a way to integrate spinal movement. Chen stylists though tend to only use horizontal turning of the waist for silk reeling and very little vertical movement which I find a bit one dimensional compared to Bagua and Xingyi and in fact a little bit peculiar as it seems natural to utilize vertical movement as well.

BTW, you can use vertical movement to store "energy" (potential kinetic energy) just as you use horizontal movement. If you want more strength to fold down, first bend up and vice versa. Useful for throws and takedowns.
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Bao wrote:
There are thick layers of fascia in both the lower and upper back that cross connect the body. So coiling is a natural way of connecting the body for whole body movement, and twisting and coiling is a way to integrate spinal movement. Chen stylists though tend to only use horizontal turning of the waist for silk reeling and very little vertical movement which I find a bit one dimensional compared to Bagua and Xingyi and in fact a little bit peculiar as it seems natural to utilize vertical movement as well.

BTW, you can use vertical movement to store "energy" (potential kinetic energy) just as you use horizontal movement. If you want more strength to fold down, first bend up and vice versa. Useful for throws and takedowns.


Oh Bao, you do say the funniest things.

https://vimeo.com/307321736
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Re: Pivital Question

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 2:33 pm

Lol! You really like trying to confuse subjects, don’t you? :P That is basic Dantian rotation practice. I mentioned silk reeling. Maybe sort of same but still different. Not what I spoke about. They say that Dantian rotation is a part of silk reeling, but I almost never see that kind of spine movement in silk reeling practice. Some of them Chen guys say that the use of the kua rotates the Dantian. Anyway, this below is mostly how they perform silk reeling. Movement coordinated with the Dantian but not much whole body movement or coiling at all.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zzDsAzbsyH4

CXW has more Dantian movement, but still I don’t see a very articulated spine movement in his basic silk reeling arm circles. He seem to be mostly quite straight and does not use power generation directly from spine movement. He mostly keeps the back straight.

https://www.facebook.com/niko.konstanti ... 3NjgwMzg5/


I like Chen Zhonghua’s movements though, his action matches his words, but as his Chen style is not recognized as standard.... :-X
Last edited by Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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