MaartenSFS wrote:1) It was wrapped around the hand/wrist so that if the sword fell it would not be lost to the enemy.
MaartenSFS wrote: Distraction may be another one,
MaartenSFS wrote:Number two is the important one there.
According Scott Rodell, tassels on straight swords and cloth on sabres are all a rather modern thing, maybe 100 yrs.
johnwang wrote:MaartenSFS wrote:Number two is the important one there.
If that's the main purpose, Chinese should be smart enough to figure out a better way to do that.
LaoDan wrote:Does anyone have information on saber/dao cloths and when they began to be used instead of the wrist cord? . . .
So, by the 1930s some martial artists were using saber/dao cloths, but most do not appear to have done so. My guess is that the prevalence of the use of the saber/dao cloth mainly occurred after martial arts became a performance sport. While we could come up with explanations for martial purposes for the saber/dao cloth, if they were not really used in actual combat then the speculation may be rather meaningless.
Subitai wrote:Not really much to add for me after the all the answers already... but I figured i'd throw this vid in:
The Final Master Fight Scene - Bart Jam Do " Ally fight vs single knife and cloth "
https://youtu.be/a88A_1PSZ1s?t=130
LaoDan wrote:I was wondering when the use of cloth tied to the pommel of the saber/dao began. . . .
Does anyone have information on saber/dao cloths and when they began to be used instead of the wrist cord? . . .
My guess is that the prevalence of the use of the saber/dao cloth mainly occurred after martial arts became a performance sport.
Brian Kennedy (author of “Chinese Martial Arts Training Manual: A Historical Survey”) on September 12, 2003 wrote:I also came to the same conclusion regarding the tassels on both straight swords and sabers; they look cool and they are a holdover from the chinese opera.
In either case there is, at least as far as I can see, no martial or bio-mechanical reason for it.
In a related but completely unrelated question; why did the Chinese in the Republican period tie a string between their (very cool) "broomhandle" Mauser pistols and their belts? Were they afraid of "forgetting" their pistol at some bar or brothel so they tied a string to it? Or to prevent local hoodlums or mean foreign devils from stealing their Mausers?
Oh, I should mention the "tie the pistol to the belt" routine is not just in the Shaw Brothers movies, I have seen "real" photos in gun magazines where they do it.
take care,
Brian the Gunslinger
C. Fritz Froehlich on September 12, 2003 wrote:Hi all,
In refference to the following:Brian Kennedy wrote:I also came to the same conclusion regarding the tassels on both straight swords and sabers; they look cool and they are a holdover from the chinese opera.
In either case there is, at least as far as I can see, no martial or bio-mechanical reason for it.
In European saber technique even as recently as WW1 the Saber was tied to the wrist with a cord. This is to prevent the saber when droped to be compleatly lost. Having fenced saber in college I can see the need for this. When a full weighted saber is hit by another it could be dislodged. Especially if you are on a charging horse. This also can come into effect if your hand is covered in your opponents blood.
I have found a reference in an interesting book on Asian fencing called "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Aikido and Weapons Training" to the use of the tassel. The Chinese Author Lujian Xing, gives the same reasons for the tassel. It is not a weapon or a flashy ellement of the form, but a way of keeping the sword close to your hand even if you drop it. Having tried this, with form and in simulated combat a simple strip of cloth is easier to use than the bulky tassel.
This book is worth a look. I am not fully conversant with the Japanese weapons, but I am skeptical on their functionallity. How ever the Chinese straight sword material is very similar to the western fencing books being translated and distributed by the ARMA people.
I am curious as to the functionallity of the forms we have learned. Do they teach dance or combative combinations. At least they teach how to move with a weapon in your hands.
On a further note the same rational is used for the Pistol tied to the wrist or the waist. It was standard practice in the late 19th century and early 20th century British army to tie the pistol to a lanyard that hung from the waist or from around the neck.
There is my two cents worth,
Fritz
AidanO on Sep 20, 2010 wrote:Historically, tassels did exist, in the same design for both Jian and Dao, which is strange that what is currently passed on between the two is very different between them. However, the historical tassel bears little resemblance to what is currently sold/displayed on swords today.
It was also a useful addition to a blade. Here's a picture of what I mean: http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/
The use of the Chinese tassel was that same as that of European cavalry sabers. It looped around the wrist in battle, so if your blade was knocked out of your hand for whatever reason, you didn't lose your sword. It dropped and dangled until you could recover it. I'm sure that people would have trained skills to flick it back into their hand, but it wouldn't have been regimented.
The big tassels that are so very common these days on Jian and the brightly coloured cloth on Dao are from the Chinese Opera and gradually took over.
In modern practice is there a need for a tassel of this type? Probably not unless physics suddenly breaks down and guns stop working, because even if you are interested in restoring Chinese swordsmanship and sparring with real weight weapons, it's unlikely that you are going to be charging around on horseback with a live blade shopping at people and risk dropping your blade.
Although I have seen clips on youtube that are remarkably similar.
josh stout on 05-30-2007 wrote:I think you have a good hypothesis for the general flow of history regarding the tassel. However, it would only be useful as a general description because many specific exceptions could be found given the size of China and the length of its history. Remember that Wushu came from Chinese Opera with a long tradition of flashy weapons. Also, in the Yuan dynasty there are many examples of regulation military dao with somewhat short double tassels that look very similar to the slightly longer ones available today. Ming jian seem to be better designed for tassel use than most Qing jian. So if you think the tassel is a pain and you don't want to use it, you would be with what appears to be the majority position of the last 500 years or so of sword use. On the other hand, if you like the tassel you would be part of a continuous tradition of use going back at least a millennium.
Josh
Mykickboxing.com wrote:Combat Uses
The guan dao is used quite frequently in the part of contemporary Wushu that is deemed to have derived from "Shaolin" form of martial arts in modern times and in popular fictional depictions. According to contemporary Wushu practice, its purpose is more to disarm an opponent and deflect his strikes rather than to attack. To that end, a large veil cloth is attached to the end to dissuade and confuse opponents. However, there is no evidence of this being an authentic aspect of the weapon's usage. Tassles and cloths are attached to numerous weapons such as jian, dao, and guan dao used in Chinese opera, one of the sources of movements found in contemporary wushu. In addition, we do not see these tassles and cloths attached to weaponry in other cultures, so we can assume this feature would have been of little consequence - if confusion was a great element surely they would be found in later European dueling-type swords and we would perhaps see it filtered into modern day fencing. There is a notch located on the back side of the blade used to grasp opposing weapons. Moreover, the long range of the guan dao allows the wielder to keep his distance. In modern training, the proper wielding of a guan dao resembles an intricate dance. It however shares design similarities with some european polearms - as both a heavy and a long weapon it is doubtful that theatrical techniques could have been practically employed. Forms utilizing the weapon in styles such as Hung Ga Kuen, emphasize strong slashing movements and momentum to keep the heavy blade moving through a series of spinning cuts. The considerable weight of the weapon also makes guan dao forms good for training the overall strength of the body.
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