salcanzonieri wrote:
Yes, I know where Baji Quan originated, and by Chen Yan Xi's time, it was well spread out to Shandong and Tianjin, both places that he spent many years living and teaching. He was very respected in those areas, it would be strange for him not to interact with practitioners from other styles.
This site is the only place someone can have questions and can ask people what their learned opinion (or not learned, ha) is. And where people give insightful answers back.
For some reason the Chen Pao Chui we see today isn't matching up to what their old records say it comes from (Shaolin Pao Quan).
Having learned Baji, both mainland and Taiwan versions, I saw the postures in the Chen Pao Chui, I mean they are literally there (Chen Pao Chui has only 20 postures that are not in Yi Lu). I learned Shaolin Pao Quan in my younger years, none of these 20 postures are in any of the forms.
I thought it was a strange thing.
All the Yi Lu postures are found in various Shaolin sets of different types (Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan), why wouldn't that be true about these 20 Er Lu postures?
But the more "conjecturing" with people here, the more seeing that Chen Yan Xi might be the link (will I ever know for sure, no, but so what?).
Seems plausible to me. Chen Fake's Chen Pao Chui was something no one had ever seen before.
Yang family certainly didn't have it. I don't think the Pao Chui was available for his generation.
Because then Zhaobao would have it, but they don't.
Pennykid wrote:Sal, is that old Yang form of Lin Du Ying anywhere on the net? I've only ever seen Tian Zhaolin forms from the Yang Jian-hou lineage.
Well, there's also the small frame fast set but I suspect that is not what you're teaching your students -
Bhassler wrote:The supposed 3rd, 4th, and 108 sets are generally believed to have been made up by the folks claiming to possess them, as least as far as the CZK lineage is concerned. This is from folks who are disciples of CZK students and from Chen Yu. It's probably worth noting that CZK did not have any formal disciples, so anyone claiming to be such is already stretching the truth (at best). It's also probably worth noting that none of Chen Fake's known students have any those sets, either.
chenyaolong wrote:salcanzonieri wrote:
Yes, I know where Baji Quan originated, and by Chen Yan Xi's time, it was well spread out to Shandong and Tianjin, both places that he spent many years living and teaching. He was very respected in those areas, it would be strange for him not to interact with practitioners from other styles.
This site is the only place someone can have questions and can ask people what their learned opinion (or not learned, ha) is. And where people give insightful answers back.
For some reason the Chen Pao Chui we see today isn't matching up to what their old records say it comes from (Shaolin Pao Quan).
Having learned Baji, both mainland and Taiwan versions, I saw the postures in the Chen Pao Chui, I mean they are literally there (Chen Pao Chui has only 20 postures that are not in Yi Lu). I learned Shaolin Pao Quan in my younger years, none of these 20 postures are in any of the forms.
I thought it was a strange thing.
All the Yi Lu postures are found in various Shaolin sets of different types (Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan), why wouldn't that be true about these 20 Er Lu postures?
But the more "conjecturing" with people here, the more seeing that Chen Yan Xi might be the link (will I ever know for sure, no, but so what?).
Seems plausible to me. Chen Fake's Chen Pao Chui was something no one had ever seen before.
Yang family certainly didn't have it. I don't think the Pao Chui was available for his generation.
Because then Zhaobao would have it, but they don't.
Do you know how large Shandong province is? Even with modern transport it takes several hours to get from one city to another.
Bob wrote:Which of the bajiquan forms fit your conceptualization of Pao Chui?
Jin Gang Ba Shi?
Xiao Baji Jia?
Da Baji?
Baji/Pigua combination?
Baji Lian Huan (linking form)?
Liu Da Kai?
Ba Da Zao?
Since you cite the late Charles Chen as one of your instructors, is your reference comparison the Li Shunwen/Liu Yunqiao lineage?s)
Franklin wrote:just saw this video today - and made me think of this thread
sanhuangpaochui
at about 4:05 in this video
what he is doing looks like chen style erlu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8HPtiG3lIQ
Bob wrote:The training methodology, shen fa/structure of, and purpose of Xiao Baji Jia are completely different from that which is expressed in Pao Chui - there is a two person part to Xiao Baji Jia which is not found in Pao Chui - also there are many variations of Xiao Baji Jia (12 I know of). Xiao Baji Jia is the foundational training in Liu's lineage whereas Pao Chui is the "icing on the cake" in Chen style taiji, at least as how it is told to me by lineage holders in the system.
Just for the record, what is labeled as Jin Gang Bashi in Liu's line is not the Shaolin (longfist) version found in Tianjin - Liu's Jin Gang Bashi is 100% bajiquan.
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