So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby jbb73 on Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 am

salcanzonieri wrote:and yet another site with information showing that ALL the Chen TJQ that we so [see?] today is RESTRUCTURED, like I said before, from Chen Fake's lineage.


So I´m not sure I understand you right here (in other points also, but that doesn´t matter): Do you want to say that all today existing CTJQ is derived from Chen Fake´s lineage?
(If so, this seems obviously wrong to me, as a lot of Small Frame lineages are clearly independent from Chen Fake.)
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri May 24, 2019 7:01 am

jbb73 wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:and yet another site with information showing that ALL the Chen TJQ that we so [see?] today is RESTRUCTURED, like I said before, from Chen Fake's lineage.


So I´m not sure I understand you right here (in other points also, but that doesn´t matter): Do you want to say that all today existing CTJQ is derived from Chen Fake´s lineage?
(If so, this seems obviously wrong to me, as a lot of Small Frame lineages are clearly independent from Chen Fake.)


No, you are right, I was talking about Lao Jia only. Or should have been.
As the article shows, there is the old Small Frame that was still left by one person in Chen village and those that went to X'ian city.

Did Chen Fake and his son teach Small Frame in Beijing? and elsewhere?
Was it just Lao Jia and Xin Jia?

By the way, there seems to be an implication in that article that there is not really a New Frame, that the Old Frame that Chen Zhaopei taught was like what he could muster to teach and that when they saw the full version of Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu from Chen Zhao Kui they thought it was something New, hence they dubbed it the New Frame in comparison to what they were practicing, but in reality, it was the Original version all along, that Chen Fake learned from his father, Chen Yan Xi.

If you look at the New Frame versions of the sets they are closer to Du's versions in Taiwan, especially their Pao Chui. Look at that Taiwan video showing Du's Pao Chui, has much more moves in it like the New Frame does.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby charles on Fri May 24, 2019 7:38 am

salcanzonieri wrote:By the way, there seems to be an implication in that article that there is not really a New Frame...


That is the accepted understanding. New frame is just a variation of the old frame, particularly with more obvious coiling, the applications less hidden and, often, with more fa jin expressed. It tends to be more "dynamic" or "showier".

that the Old Frame that Chen Zhaopei taught was like what he could muster to teach and that when they saw the full version of Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu from Chen Zhao Kui they thought it was something New, hence they dubbed it the New Frame in comparison to what they were practicing, but in reality, it was the Original version all along, that Chen Fake learned from his father, Chen Yan Xi.


One thing to keep in mind is that form practice is not static. Often, as one gets older, and as one's understanding deepens, how one performs the form often changes. For example, older practitioners often show less fa jin and often less small detail: the form becomes "rounder" and "softer". People often add little bits here and there, or remove bits here and there to suit the preferences of their practice. Sometimes, "changes" to forms, are simply the practitioner's preferences as they "grow-into" their form and as they age. There are many examples of that. For example, if you look at performances of er lu by a young CXW or CZL or FZQ, and compare that to performances of their older selves, there are lots of changes in how they perform the choreography and, in some cases, some changes to the choreography itself.

Also keep in mind that one often varies how one practices a form from one day to the next. One day, one might emphasize one aspect, another day a different aspect. What is captured on film might only reflect what was done that particular day, particularly if you don't want to reveal too much captured on film.

The story goes that Xin Jia was CFK's expression of his forms later in his life, carried on by his son, who made it his own, adding his own interpretation/flavour. Hong had his own interpretation, as did Feng: they each had a common starting point - CFK's teaching - but are recognized as their own sub-styles, as "Xin Jia" is.

If you look at the New Frame versions of the sets they are closer to Du's versions in Taiwan, especially their Pao Chui. Look at that Taiwan video showing Du's Pao Chui, has much more moves in it like the New Frame does.


What one learns from one's teacher often depends upon when you studied with him or her. For example, if one studied with Feng prior to the early 90's, one learned something quite different from what later students learned from him. It looks different, it feels different, it has different things emphasized and some of the choreography is different. Feng eliminated from his practice and his curriculum the yi lu form, replacing it entirely with other forms of his own, such as his 48 form. If you were a student of his in the early '80's, you learned yi lu: if you were a student of his in the 90's, you learned one version of the 48. If you studied the 48 with him - or his students - in the 2000's, you learned a very different expression of the 48. Ditto for his 24 form, qigong, weapons...

Sometimes - maybe often - changes to the choreography of forms are simply one person's "evolution" of their practice of forms. In some cases, those changes might be due to other influences from other practices, but not always.
Last edited by charles on Fri May 24, 2019 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby HotSoup on Fri May 24, 2019 7:48 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Did Chen Fake and his son teach Small Frame in Beijing? and elsewhere?
Was it just Lao Jia and Xin Jia?


Sal, it looks like you are very confused about what Small and Big frames are. They are, first and foremost, the lineages. Chen Fake didn't teach any Xiaojia in Beijing, because he wasn't part of that lineage, he's Dajia. The same obviously applies to Chen Zhaokui, his son.

salcanzonieri wrote:Was it just Lao Jia and Xin Jia?


These two were not separate at that time. CFK just taught his version of Dajia, that's it. The modern notion of Xinjia and Laojia is an invention of the four tigers, since they wanted to differentiate between the stuff they learned from Chen Zhaopi from what they learned from Chen Zhaokui, respectively.

Also, if you are looking for non-CFK Dajia, check Chen Quanzhong, he's coming from another Dajia lineage.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby D_Glenn on Fri May 24, 2019 7:53 am

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t ‘Pao Chui’ just a nickname for erlu? And the erlu form just develops more advanced skills like Teng, building upon skills first introduced in yilu?

.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby HotSoup on Fri May 24, 2019 8:04 am

D_Glenn wrote:Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t ‘Pao Chui’ just a nickname for erlu? And the erlu form just develops more advanced skills like Teng, building upon skills first introduced in yilu?


Your understanding is correct. This is the most accepted interpretation, IMO.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Franklin on Fri May 24, 2019 8:38 am

HotSoup wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Did Chen Fake and his son teach Small Frame in Beijing? and elsewhere?
Was it just Lao Jia and Xin Jia?


Sal, it looks like you are very confused about what Small and Big frames are. They are, first and foremost, the lineages. Chen Fake didn't teach any Xiaojia in Beijing, because he wasn't part of that lineage, he's Dajia. The same obviously applies to Chen Zhaokui, his son.

salcanzonieri wrote:Was it just Lao Jia and Xin Jia?


These two were not separate at that time. CFK just taught his version of Dajia, that's it. The modern notion of Xinjia and Laojia is an invention of the four tigers, since they wanted to differentiate between the stuff they learned from Chen Zhaopi from what they learned from Chen Zhaokui, respectively.

Also, if you are looking for non-CFK Dajia, check Chen Quanzhong, he's coming from another Dajia lineage.



Pan Wing Chow (Pan YongZhou) studied with Chan Fake in beijing
and he taught a small frame form as part of the curriculum
it is not much seen publicly - but he taught it

in his book - he details the yilu, er,lu, and the small frame
he also includes a new frame form in his book
(but i had never heard about the new frame as part of the lineage -- untill I got his book
so I have no idea what the story is on that one -- and haven't bothered to translate the book)


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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri May 24, 2019 10:02 am

Summing up response to the last bunch of posts:

What I am looking at is the named postures themselves (not how exactly they are done internally, which is the flavor of the practitioner, agreed), the number of postures in the sets, the unnamed transitional movements between postures, and anything related.

And, seems that there is more than one source of Small Frame lineages, as I have read of more than one person teaching small frame from out of Chen Fake's teachings (a female student too in Beijing?).

One thing about Chen Fake's Yi Lu, it has a couple more Tai Zhu Chang Quan postures, missing from the Zhen Zhao Pei Yi Lu.

The Lao Jia Er Lu is only 42 postures. The Xin jia is like 61 postures, big difference.
Same with Yi Lu, Xin Jia has 10 more postures. All of them are transitional postures.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby HotSoup on Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 pm

Franklin wrote:Pan Wing Chow (Pan YongZhou) studied with Chan Fake in beijing
and he taught a small frame form as part of the curriculum
it is not much seen publicly - but he taught it

in his book - he details the yilu, er,lu, and the small frame
he also includes a new frame form in his book
(but i had never heard about the new frame as part of the lineage -- untill I got his book
so I have no idea what the story is on that one -- and haven't bothered to translate the book)
Franklin


Let me admit this, I don't know much about the Taiwanese lineages. However, given that 1) he's the only disciple of CFK known for demonstrating Xiojia and 2) his closeness to Du Yuze and Guo Qingshan both of whom practiced Xiaojia, I would assume that it is more possible than not that he learnt Xiaojia not from CFK.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Fri May 24, 2019 1:15 pm

Du Yuze's forms, taught to him by Chen Yanxi (hired as family bodyguard - Du was not a disciple) are not xiao jia. Du Yuze learned Hu Lei Jia from another family bodyguard - Adam Hsu has this all documented in his past writings.

.Wang Meng Bi personally referred to his forms as xiao jia and learned them from Chen Fake - I am fairly certain they are not the same xiao jia forms commonly seen on Youtube.

It's been almost 20 years since I was into this area but I do have a copy of an old photo, from Taiwan, of the 3 generally accepted Chen masters with Liu Yunqiao - somewhere in my stacks LOL - I'm retired LOL
Last edited by Bob on Fri May 24, 2019 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby HotSoup on Fri May 24, 2019 1:54 pm

Bob wrote:Du Yuze's forms, taught to him by Chen Yanxi (hired as family bodyguard - Du was not a disciple) are not xiao jia. Du Yuze learned Hu Lei Jia from another family bodyguard - Adam Hsu has this all documented in his past writings.

.Wang Meng Bi personally referred to his forms as xiao jia and learned them from Chen Fake - I am fairly certain they are not the same xiao jia forms commonly seen on Youtube.

It's been almost 20 years since I was into this area but I do have a copy of an old photo, from Taiwan, of the 3 generally accepted Chen masters with Liu Yunqiao - somewhere in my stacks LOL - I'm retired LOL


Du Yuze studied not only with Chen Yanxi. He learnt Xiaojia from Chen Mingbiao. I’m not aware of his studies of Hulei, thus hard to comment. I remember, however, that there was some kind of misnaming of either Xiaojia or Hulei in Taiwan. Something akin to the one was called the other or vice versa. When the contacts with the mainland had been renewed, the truth was restored pretty quickly.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Fri May 24, 2019 2:40 pm

It's been so long but I think everyone thought it was xiao jia but it turned out to be hu lei jia - there is a clip on youtube from the 90s when Adam Hsu went back tu the village of hu lei jia and demonstrated - I think some of Du's disciples had a problem with Adam Hsu's take - Michael Demarco, Journal of Asian Martial Arts founder, knows this history well as he is a formal student of Du's, and a Taiwanese/Chinese disciple went back to the mainland and was involved with xiao jia
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby taiwandeutscher on Fri May 24, 2019 5:14 pm

Yes, Taiwan Hulei (the Yang Hu lineage) was called Xiaojia for a long time, wrongly.
Du Yuze, so the story goes, gave up on Hulei altogether, after having exchanged with Wang Jinrang, a Hulei-Yang Hu guy, who had been living secluded down south.
Xu Ji's Hulei is even farther away from the real Hulei lineages, so no one in Wanggedang knew what he was showing them.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri May 31, 2019 2:49 pm

I thought Pao Chui was the original Chen family boxing that they brought with them and that they learned from Chen Pu, circa 1368. After the clan moved to Chenjiagou, Chen Wanting, circa 1650 systematized their art into 7 sets of Taijiquan, push hands and sticky spear. Pao Chui was brought on as one of the 7 sets of Taijiquan. Chen Changxing, circa 1850, simplified the 7 sets into only 2 sets, Yi Lu and Er lu, which is what is taught today.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:45 pm

I get the historical authentication method of Chenshitaijiquan but many essential points/elements are missing (purposeful omission ;D) that alot of stuff appears pausible despite the other side of the historical context not even mentioned!
My main point is: What about the Li family (in selected sources) stated to be brothers of Chen family in the spreading of what we call Chenshitaijiquan?
What happened to them? Are any relatives alive today? etc. I have seen translated sources that they were "blood brothers" (Chen and Li ;D ) so what happened?

The selected sources are often kept out of the whole context vis a vis the Zhaobao side of the story, where we have historical elements in place to give us a well rounded picture!
Here's a go about Zhaobao: Chenjiagou family member marries into Zhaobao village and incorporates elements of a local style and the art propagates until what we see today Zhaobao taijiquan (Chen style mixed with another family style) and recently they are claining that they are the origin vs Chenjiagou (taijiquan-yes, it was not called that back then but still). espite the story line we still see a discernlbe pattern of Zhaobao development.

I am putting on my teachers hat to say that Pao Chui is an old designation ??? that was adopted by those who were familiar with at least the name and since transportation was difficult in those days, people who were clever enough to put thier own signature while using the name of PaoChui as their own representation. Not unlike the Chen origin where different surnames (Yang, Wu, Sun, etc) put their own mark, changed some elements of what they learned then made the respective art their own intellectual property, as it were. As we know, even Chenshitaijiquan has origin in other styles of the day ;D
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