Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:06 am

at the risk of sounding overly simplistic:

what he said =
by oragami_itto
"You get out of it what you put in to it"


To me PH is like a gate way to CLINCH WORK and other things :

...if you wanna work a standing clinch range...then ya, you get out of it what you put into it.

! Standing clinch IMO happens on it's own randomly or on purpose....like when a guy is pressed up against the side of a cage or wall.

...if you wanna work setting up locks ph is a good way to do that from the perspective of listening and waiting for the right moment to apply it. Locks work better when "HE gives it to me" more than If I try to force what's not there. I can also attack from clinch and follow his response to a lock or finish...it just takes a fighter to set it up properly.

...if grapplers can START on thier knees to work hip and body position, switching to potential finishes or submissions. Why then cannot PH people also start from a standing clinch type position to begin potential attacks. Strike, lock, sweep or throw?
Last edited by Subitai on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Subitai on Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:30 am

To answer the OP Walk the Torque...

There is value in the traditional 2 hands Full rotation push hands patterns...also Da Lu and such. I never do push hands that won't allow grabbing btw.

You ask:
what good is the classical large and small circle push hands with its crossing of the arms and pushing each other out of range


If people think that their OWN arms will never be crossed over their OWN center (even if for a brief split second) ...then they have never been "ARM DRAGGED" before. When someone does grab you ala a 2 on 1 scenario (i.e. he holds my wrist and elbow) = to know how to get out of it...either by more subtle Taiji methods or by shear grappling methods is important work.

Just because PH does degrade often into what looks like shitty Judo (haha ) or taiji Sumo, it doesn't take away from reading a fighters strategy.
ONE example, Think about it...if my opponent is so overly concerned with me crossing his arms that he keeps himself open in the center.... Result, when I attack the center he must cover or protect himself. When he does that...I follow him to cross his center. Objective achieved.

==================================
Pushing:
==================================
Push it self is not that deadly if you only use it to get him to move back a couple feet. But once you get a person on their back heels however, a push can fling them into furniture or something else hard that will hurt.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:45 am

some thoughts on push hands with examples of how it carries over
to combative usage....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFcUxep9TE
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Giles on Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:16 pm

windwalker wrote:some thoughts on push hands with examples of how it carries over
to combative usage....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFcUxep9TE


Nice. Especially clear on the carry-over from 6:50 onwards, in my view. And the pao chui he shows at 7:45 is pretty much the same as one option for "Fair Lady Works Shuttles".
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:14 pm

Walk the Torque wrote:Its not Tai Chi that is the problem John; it is the lack of proper training.

In order to block your opponent's punch, you need to master:

- inside out block,
- outside in block,
- upward block,
- downward block,
- inside out deflect,
- outside in deflect,
- separate hands,
- ...

Do these training exist in Taiji PH? I don't think so.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
Walk the Torque wrote:Its not Tai Chi that is the problem John; it is the lack of proper training.

In order to block your opponent's punch, you need to master:

- inside out block,
- outside in block,
- upward block,
- downward block,
- inside out deflect,
- outside in deflect,
- separate hands,
- ...

Do these training exist in Taiji PH? I don't think so.


Hi John,

I'm sure you know this but...

- inside out block, = Wardoff, Part Horses Mane, start of Fair Lady.
- outside in block, = White Snake spits out its tounge, Start of Snake creeps down, Rollback with the fist.
- upward block, = Fair Lady Works the Shuttles, Fan through the back.
- downward block = Hold the ball, Roll Back.
- inside out deflect = Fist under Elbow.
- outside in deflect = Hold the Ball (upper hand).
- separate hands = Part Horses Mane, White Crane Spreads Wings, Strike Tiger.


Again though, I think it is not the techniques that are lacking as such, but the application of the techniques under varying degrees of pressure. Any school that does not spar would be subject to criticism as to teaching a martial art, but that would not justify the entire style to be dismissed.

all the best
Konn
Last edited by Walk the Torque on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:50 pm

Shucks, those are covered in just Wave Hands.

But, imo, you're right. It's not (and never has been) that the techniques are lacking. However, I still think that looking to "push hands" for fighting techniques is backwards. Sparring is required, but it's sparring against people who aren't doing push hands --or don't know it__ is the best way to find out if one's learned anything from one's practice. Moreover, no one has ever said that push hands was sufficient fight training or even tcc fight training.

That brings up the problem of push hands being considered the goal of tcc practice. I always thought it was just the beginning of partner practice. And, that isn't to argue that "Da lu" or "San shou" are more advanced. Push hands ("4 sides") is basic, but the basics aren't easier. Da lu and sanshou --no matter how they are practiced-- offer the opportunities to practice a different set of techniques and respond to different types of attacks.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 pm

It's all there just look
If it's not there in your training get a better teacher
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:39 pm

PH really depends on level, depth and focus of the teacher .
As mentioned in the clip its not the end goal...
For many it seems like their practice of PH is to get better at PH which if
its the goal they'er doing what they need to do to get good at PH...for some a specialized competition.

If the goal is free fighting,,ie sparring the focus and training is different....
The clip outlines this.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4heo0ZtTaKo
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:52 pm

wayne hansen wrote:It's all there just look
If it's not there in your training get a better teacher

Of course it's all there, But do people train those techniques in the PH?

The separate leg, turn around with heel kick, outside crescent kick are also in Taiji. But it's not trained in the PH.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:37 am

We do
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Giles on Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:37 am

johnwang wrote:In order to block your opponent's punch, you need to master:

- inside out block,
- outside in block,
- upward block,
- downward block,
- inside out deflect,
- outside in deflect,
- separate hands,
- ...

Do these training exist in Taiji PH? I don't think so.


John, of course they do.
--> Most recent posts by Walk the Torque and Steve James and Wayne Hansen.

Of course it's all there, But do people train those techniques in the PH?
The separate leg, turn around with heel kick, outside crescent kick are also in Taiji. But it's not trained in the PH.


Some people train these hand/arm/torso techniques in PH quite explicitly. Not as something 'different' to be added into the mix, but as one natural manifestation of what you're doing, or should be doing, all the time. You can do these in both fixed step and moving step. It's not good to only train fixed step, but the advantage of this mode is that it forces you to make proper use of the waist/yao/kwa as the essential element in the hand techniques. All the more important when you really are defending against, and using the energy of, incoming strikes. Then you use the waist in the same way, as the chief 'problem solver' also when you are stepping.

The [leg]= kicking techniques are less commonly used in PH because there is physically less room for them, in my experience they tend to be trained more in applications or in the grey area between sparring and PH. But they can be incorporated too.
Last edited by Giles on Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:25 am

if people want to do standup throwing arts or standup sparring with strikes + throws, they should do that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:31 pm

True. "Where's the beef?" People can include whatever they want.

I think one issue is that everything in the tcc form (which forms the basis for phs) is meant to counter an opponent doing tcc --or using a technique/jin from the form. The problem (can) come then the tcc person faces an opponent who uses (specializes) techniques that are not from the tcc form. So, a muay thai person uses specific techniques that aren't found in the form --and, if the tcc person has only done phs, he is at a disadvantage. The solution is simple: ...:)
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:01 pm

I don't know if beating up ph should be the point of this or any other thread with all our points that we've beat to death but if you look at some other arts that have wider adoption, there is a super clear educational approach that is standardized worldwide. judo gives probably the best and most successful example with kata, randori, shiai.

people say you do ph then you do san shou, but has anyone here ever seen these supposed people doing this supposed progression? further, are any of the people doing it actually athletic or talented whatsoever? this goes back to one of my earlier points - you don't teach some outsider named Yang or whatever until you realize "holy shit this kid is really fucking good, I will teach him everything I know" - like happens with every elite, difficult sport or art on the planet. at the far opposite extreme, if we say "sink qi" and use "energy" and so on, nobody with external talent probably wants to do that because it's boring and seemingly esoteric or mysterious and there is no immediately obvious benefit. so whomever followed that route probably comes about it in an oddball way (like guo yunshen in shackles or dong haichuan meeting some weird monk), but others are just kind of lost and confused between these extremes.
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