Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:48 pm

Steve James wrote:I think one issue is that everything in the tcc form (which forms the basis for phs) is meant to counter an opponent doing tcc --or using a technique/jin from the form.

I disagree completely. Perhaps we just come from different traditions, but as I learned it, that's just wholly inaccurate. Taijiquan works much better against not-taijiquan. Push hands routines, yes, generally come from the form and neutralize each other. There's simply no getting around that if you both want to study taijiquan.
The problem (can) come then the tcc person faces an opponent who uses (specializes) techniques that are not from the tcc form. So, a muay thai person uses specific techniques that aren't found in the form --and, if the tcc person has only done phs, he is at a disadvantage. The solution is simple: ...:)

Well, yes. If you want to fight, train fighting under the conditions that you will encounter during the fight. I don't know why people feel like they have to say this constantly as if it's some sort of revelation.

everything wrote:people say you do ph then you do san shou, but has anyone here ever seen these supposed people doing this supposed progression? further, are any of the people doing it actually athletic or talented whatsoever?

I know the guys in san antonio tend to get into that pretty heavy. You should come down to Austin for our next statewide meetup.

others are just kind of lost and confused between these extremes.

I think most of us are. Lost, confused, lonely, misguided, that's just being human.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Steve James wrote:True. "Where's the beef?" People can include whatever they want.

I think one issue is that everything in the tcc form (which forms the basis for phs) is meant to counter an opponent doing tcc --or using a technique/jin from the form. The problem (can) come then the tcc person faces an opponent who uses (specializes) techniques that are not from the tcc form. So, a muay thai person uses specific techniques that aren't found in the form --and, if the tcc person has only done phs, he is at a disadvantage. The solution is simple: ...:)



Now that's about the silliest thing I have ever heard
No martial art is designed to fight itself
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby everything on Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:

I know the guys in san antonio tend to get into that pretty heavy. You should come down to Austin for our next statewide meetup.

others are just kind of lost and confused between these extremes.


I think most of us are. Lost, confused, lonely, misguided, that's just being human.


the meet up sounds cool. the humans - hahaha yeah. it would be nice to be on the same page about one tiny thing, but eh. dazed and confused it is.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:57 pm

Taijiquan works much better against not-taijiquan. Push hands routines, yes, generally come from the form and neutralize each other. There's simply no getting around that if you both want to study taijiquan.


Convince John Wang that tcc works better against shuai jiao ... or that a tcc practitioner has a better chance against a boxer. That wasn't my point, but if that were true, we would never have had this discussion.

No martial art is designed to fight itself


That really wasn't the idea either. The point was that tcc practitioners practice against other tcc practitioners --when we're talking about push hands. All the movements/techniques in push hands come from the form. But, that doesn't imply that a tcc practitioner can't do things that aren't in the form. That's what I said to everything.

And, the simple "solution" is already pointed out in the classics. Ya gotta practice against all different types of people and arts in order to become truly accomplished. The one thing one notes when alleged tcc "masters" compete is that they usually don't look like they can fight, let alone use tcc to fight. Again, if this weren't true, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Besides, I never implied that there weren't people, groups, and schools who did all these things, and enter open competitions. Ime, none limit themselves to push hands or obvious techniques from their forms.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:14 pm

Competition is competition a game played by athletes
You should look into the history of tai chi in Malaysia
They took on everyone in no holds bared contests and came out on top
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:25 am

I don't have to look that far.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:37 am

Steve James wrote:
Convince John Wang that tcc works better against shuai jiao ...


Why? I don't care whether it does or not and care less what anybody thinks it does or not.

You made a ridiculous statement, that Taijiquan only works against Taijiquan, and I pointed out that statement is ridiculous.

Now your Taijiquan may be worrhless in a confrontation and I respect that's your path, but my results have been different than that.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:27 am

You made a ridiculous statement, that Taijiquan only works against Taijiquan, and I pointed out that statement is ridiculous.


Naw, the fact you think I said that is ridiculous. Reread without the emotion.

Now your Taijiquan may be worrhless in a confrontation and I respect that's your path, but my results have been different than that.


:) You're arguing with the wrong person. My point is that if you haven't fought a muay thai guy, you have no clue whether your art will work. People can say there are techniques in the form (designed) to combat muay thai kicks, but if they haven't done it, there's no way that they know.

Secondly, the only way they'll become good at it is by practicing it against people who do it, not against people who don't. Yep, I'm only talking about competition. It's obvious. But, when they do, the complaint is often that they are "not" using tcc.

Thirdly, I have no illusions about separating "my" tcc from any and everything else I've studied and learned along the way.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:24 pm

quote="Steve James"]
You made a ridiculous statement, that Taijiquan only works against Taijiquan, and I pointed out that statement is ridiculous.


Naw, the fact you think I said that is ridiculous. Reread without the emotion.[/quote]

I think one issue is that everything in the tcc form (which forms the basis for phs) is meant to counter an opponent doing tcc --or using a technique/jin from the form.

So you didn't say what you said, or you didn't mean what you said, or you are just running your mouth.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Steve James wrote: My point is that if you haven't fought a muay thai guy, you have no clue whether your art will work.

Agree with you 100% there.

How to counter

- boxer's hook punch,
- MT guy's roundhouse kick,
- wrestler's single leg,
- ...

should be your goal. Your training path should help you to reach to your goal.

PH by itself is not enough. PH + X may be enough. The question is what is X? Are you (general YOU) truly serious about X, or do you just pretend that you are serious about X? If you can't be honest to yourselves, this kind of discussion will not help anybody.

Do you include the following test in your daily training?

Ask your

- boxer opponent to punch your head 20 times,
- MT opponent to roundhouse kick your body 20 times,
- wrestler opponent to take you down by single leg 20 times,
- ...
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:38 pm

[Steve: quote]I think one issue is that everything in the tcc form (which forms the basis for phs) is meant to counter an opponent doing tcc --or using a technique/jin from the form.[/quote]

What in the form is meant to counter something not in the form? However, what you said was:

You made a ridiculous statement, that Taijiquan only works against Taijiquan,


Nothing in what I said meant that tcc "only works against Taijiquan." That would be ridiculous. The point was that people practice phs against others practicing phs. They (generally) don't do Taekwondo kicks b--because they (generally) don't do TKD. They don't practice ground work, unless they know it or practice against someone who does.

Yeah, I'm running my mouth. I still haven't been convinced I said anything wrong. I agree with John Wang about training. I don't agree that no one (who does tcc) doesn't cross-train or train against other styles or hasn't in the past. I also don't believe that any movement in the tcc form is useless --or has no functional use. I just believe that in order to find out how to use them against other arts, there is no replacement for doing it and facing it. Btw, I'm also not suggesting that anyone needs to do this or practice that way, or that everyone can or should. Otoh, I did write in my first post that "Wave Hands" comprised many practical techniques.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:07 pm

Walk the Torque wrote:With the bridging the gap thread I started thinking about the validity of push hands especially in its formal four cardinal directions format (large circle push hands).

A lot of people don't even do this type of pushing hands these days, they just join opposite hands with the opponent and go at it like a couple of bulls. Mostly because they've never been formally trained so can not understand nor gain the functionality of the practice.
Many have not come into contact with those who have.....or maybe did not gain the skill sets...this leaves gaps that some attempt to fill in because they really never got the point of the practice..


I guess my question is, what good is the classical large and small circle push hands with its crossing of the arms and pushing each other out of range, if you rarely if ever do this in sparring?

Kinda of depends on ones experience, teacher and focus of the practice

There are plenty of sensitivity exercises that don't ask you to tie your arms up or tell you not to grab, or rely on strength. So what is the point of doing the old ritual of going around in formal pushing hands, crossing the arms or trying to stay rooted to the spot, if your just going to let those things go in the end?

I have plenty more to say on the subject but will just put this up for discussion.


posted before answers most of the questions asked


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4heo0ZtTaKo

The skill sets of the practice put to use,,,"its a demo"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM06huB184s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu1wvnZsv2I
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:31 pm

Steve James wrote:Shucks, those are covered in just Wave Hands.

The Taiji wave hands is to separate your opponent's both arms from inside out. You also need to train the other 3 separate hands such as to separate your opponent's

1. both arms from outside in (double spears).
2. left arm from outside in and right arm from inside out (left downward parry, right comb hair).
3. left arm from inside out and right arm from outside in (left comb hair, right downward parry).
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Appledog on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:21 am

/forum

But beyond this I think people are just not thinking.

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote: My point is that if you haven't fought a muay thai guy, you have no clue whether your art will work.

Agree with you 100% there. ---8<---
Your training path should help you to reach to your goal. PH by itself is not enough. PH + X may be enough. The question is what is X? ---8<---
Do you include the following test in your daily training?

- boxer opponent to punch your head 20 times,
- MT opponent to roundhouse kick your body 20 times,
- wrestler opponent to take you down by single leg 20 times,
- ...


If this is what is required to produce a good 'taiji fighter' then no one practising an insular martial art like Chen Tai Chi of some kind of mimi-quan Yang style could ever have learned to fight.

The truth above is a half truth. Yes, your training path should help you to reach to your goal. But the other side of this is that, just based on the posts on this thread, no one has any idea what that goal is, nor do they follow any kind of training path to get there. More than anything this thread demonstrates a rejection and refusal to follow a more traditional approach. Is anyone really suprised then when after 10 or 20 years there are still debates over whether or not Qi exists let alone being able to fight using their art?

It just boggles my mind how the first thing people do when they want to fight using taiji is throw out the taiji parts.
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Re: Push Hands Hohrr!! What Is It Good For?

Postby Giles on Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:19 am

Appledog wrote: Yes, your training path should help you to reach to your goal. But the other side of this is that, just based on the posts on this thread, no one has any idea what that goal is, nor do they follow any kind of training path to get there. More than anything this thread demonstrates a rejection and refusal to follow a more traditional approach. Is anyone really suprised then when after 10 or 20 years there are still debates over whether or not Qi exists let alone being able to fight using their art?

It just boggles my mind how the first thing people do when they want to fight using taiji is throw out the taiji parts.


Bear in mind that statements in a thread about a particular issue or aspect of training usually, and necessarily, contain very selective information and descriptions. The basic approach to training, all the rest of the stuff that happens in the body and mind when you do a certain 'move', has to be left out. Otherwise one has to write an essay, plus fotonotes and caveats, each time one posts anything. (Which can still be misunderstood, and will usually bore people anyway). This means that when one person says 'do this or that', readers may possibly assume that this person is doing something completely different to the 'true way' because the brief description is formulated in a different way to how they themselves would describe it. By the same token, a similar-sounding verbal description of a move may lead others to think it has the same essence as they have or aim for, while in fact the person does something quite different. Possibly...

That said, please enlighten as to where (in this thread) you think everyone is 'throwing out the taiji parts'. And indeed why no-one has any idea about what the goal is and/or why everyone is refusing to follow a more traditional approach? :)
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