What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:27 am

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Why would they challenge you?

Some students challenged me for my 3 times US heavy weight SC champion record (1982, 1983, 1984).


It may be hard for some to understand the culture.
Most if not all the teachers I knew and know have been challenged in some way or form. Sometimes by their own student, sometimes by strangers wanting to make a name.


CMA teachers, coaches, are often not regarded in the same way as their Western counterparts.

The skill that one seeks is embodied in the teacher,
Hands-On with the teacher is the only way to develop the skill.

Sometimes because the teachers don't want to hurt the students it may lead to feeling the teacher skill is not so good. The student mistaking this for lack of skill attempts to challenge dominate the teacher.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:11 am

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Why would they challenge you?

Some students challenged me for my 3 times US heavy weight SC champion record (1982, 1983, 1984).

Many world champion judo teachers wrestle (randori) with students to help them learn. They don't call them challenges and both respect their relationship, or they wouldn't be students.

Go Tsunoda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSMKPS8C_c

Kosei Inoue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGLIU2LKMPM

Neil Adams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYp4sDHxm0
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:46 am

Yeah, some people challenge masters in order to prove something or even to become a student. If the teacher spars, there are people who will take a class just to get the opportunity to show off. I have even seen teachers come to a different school and challenge the teacher there.

OK, I think sparring is totally different from challenging one's teacher. If you challenge your teacher and win, do you stay? Do you get bragging rights? Or do you start your own school?
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:05 am

oragami_itto wrote:And you can't just say "no" or just fight and lose and learn from it. I guess I just don't get the big deal. They can't take away your victories and nobody is the best forever.

Just to be clear for the record. I have never turned down any challenge (except one Taiji PH challenge) through my entire life even from my own students. I have challenged many MA instructors myself. To me the challenge is just part of the MA training.

I think student challenge his teacher is a bad idea. But I personal have never turned down such challenge not even once.

During one Chicago workshop, someone challenged my senior SC brother. My senior brother refused. I accepted that challenge for him. After the challenge, my senior brother asked me why did I take over his challenge. My senior SC brother thought that was against the CMA tradition. I told him that I just like to take it as an opportunity to test my own skill.

I did turn down one Taiji PH challenge. Since the guy who challenged me was an European Judo champion, I told him that I didn't mind to wrestle or free sparring with him. But he said that he had a bad knee. That challenge ended with just talking.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:16 am

marvin8 wrote:Many world champion judo teachers wrestle (randori) with students to help them learn. They don't call them challenges and both respect their relationship, or they wouldn't be students.

I spar/wrestle with my own students in each and every class that I have (when I was still young).

Again, when a

- teacher asks a student to spar/wrestle, that's testing/training for both sides.
- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:11 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Many world champion judo teachers wrestle (randori) with students to help them learn. They don't call them challenges and both respect their relationship, or they wouldn't be students.

I spar/wrestle with my own students in each and every class that I have (when I was still young).

Again, when a

- teacher asks a student to spar/wrestle, that's testing/training for both sides.
- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge.


So these students who challenge you are jerks?

Or were they naive enough not to understand it's disrespectful to play with the teacher and instead of treating it as a learning exercise turn it into a battle? Come to think of it isn't that the same concept when training with any partner? You throw strikes but not full power. You throw and submit people but not smash and snap joints.

Anyone who acts otherwise is a jerk and eventually will get into trouble.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:18 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Many world champion judo teachers wrestle (randori) with students to help them learn. They don't call them challenges and both respect their relationship, or they wouldn't be students.

I spar/wrestle with my own students in each and every class that I have (when I was still young).

Again, when a

- teacher asks a student to spar/wrestle, that's testing/training for both sides.

By definition, sparring is a form of training, not testing or challenging (e.g., winning). Primarily, teachers should help students improve in the skills taught, not necessarily by sparring.

johnwang wrote:- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge.

That may be true. And, the teacher can refuse challenges. It is the teacher's responsibility to set the culture of the club or team. Students that disrupt the learning environment of the team should be dealt with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr93UMg8iJ0
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:46 pm

I think it's very true that getting concussed is not good for the brain. I think the question is how one spars, not really whether one spars. Western pro boxers get hit way more in practice than in bouts. It may be worse for amateurs.

Note that at the end of the video he says that he spars with students. He's just choosy about who he does it with.

Secondly, though, Jones is already an expert professional fighter. Unless one has competed, once generally needs to spar in order to get the most basic idea of what one can accomplish.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:44 pm

Steve James wrote:I think it's very true that getting concussed is not good for the brain. I think the question is how one spars, not really whether one spars. Western pro boxers get hit way more in practice than in bouts. It may be worse for amateurs.

Note that at the end of the video he says that he spars with students. He's just choosy about who he does it with.

Secondly, though, Jones is already an expert professional fighter. Unless one has competed, once generally needs to spar in order to get the most basic idea of what one can accomplish.

Combat sports fighters do more drilling, etc., than sparring. There are different intensities of sparring, technical, etc. It's not necessary to compete to learn fighting skills. An elderly teacher should not be expected to spar and can show skills in other ways. A combat sports coach is recognized by their knowledge and success of their fighters, not necessarily by their own fighting ability.

Winning challenges doesn't necessarily prove skill. It depends on who one fought: a student, taxi cab driver, tomato can, professional fighter, champion, etc.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:22 pm

In the Jones interview, he says that too many fighter spar (hard) too much, and suffer for it. He also says that he does spar (and drill), and that there can be practice partners who overstep the limits of the sparring or drilling.

I agree. It's not about competition. It is about intensity. No amateur who trains an hour a day can be expected to compete with a professional athlete. That's what weapons are for, when necessary. Your average 80 year old won't be able to either. However, an 80 year old who has had some sparring experience (even earlier in life) will have an advantage over one who hasn't.

I think it'd be better to just say that one practices for health, and not worry about whether one is preparing for a bout like Jones. It's better not to get hit in the head, unless one absolutely has to. Otoh, if someone expects to learn how to use his skills, he'll have to get hit before he learns. But, like I said, it'd be better to accept that, rather than have false (untested) confidence.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:30 am

johnwang wrote:But I do like the CMA tradition that a student should not challenge his teacher.

.

I would say, not to challenge ones teacher belongs to common respect, nothing necessarily Chinese about it.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:36 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Many world champion judo teachers wrestle (randori) with students to help them learn. They don't call them challenges and both respect their relationship, or they wouldn't be students.

I spar/wrestle with my own students in each and every class that I have (when I was still young).

Again, when a

- teacher asks a student to spar/wrestle, that's testing/training for both sides.
- student asks his teacher to spar/wrestle, that's challenge.

I agree with this and are surprised that some here don’t see it this way ??
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm

Student: You have told us that don't do this and don't do that, but all those errors are shown in your demo. Why?
Teacher: I try to hide the truth away from the general public.

Student: You don't want to teach the 1st form and the 2nd form so you have created a 3rd form to teach to the public. What if your students want to learn the 1st and 2nd form later on?
Teacher: You can tell them that after they have learned the 3rd advance form, they no longer need to learn the 1st and 2nd basic form.

Some CMA system deserves to be dead.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:38 pm

Student: You told me that when I teach a beginner, I should follow 2 steps,

step 1: Don't teach the true stuff.
step 2: Pretend I'll teach the true stuff in the future.

What's the step 3?

Teacher:

step 3: Pretend you are teaching the true stuff.

Some CMA system deserves to be dead.
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Re: What will you do if your CMA teacher tells you this?

Postby edededed on Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:53 pm

John, all of your examples sound like typical CMA true stories!
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