Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bob on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm

https://www.adamhsu.com/articles/BajiVsTaijiFinal01.pdf


. . . There was one thing beyond my expectation: Sifu Liu had been training me in baji on
technical skills. At the same time, he gave me homework: “The Book of Taiji Quan Theory. You have
to memorize it and then recite it in front of me!”

Later I discovered something even more shocking: Sifu Liu had memorized the Book of Taiji
Quan Theory really well when he was young. It happened in Huang county of Shandong province
(now rezoned to Longko City). When Sifu Liu was in his early twenties, he liked to test his skills and
discuss his knowledge with others everyday. No wonder when Sifu Liu scolded me with words of
wisdom, it sounded so familiar! How come what he said was always consistent with the ancient
book!

It is not weird to apply taiji theories to baji training. What’s strange is: There are so many
precious taiji theories, so why has taiji “quan” disappeared now!? Why does only taiji “exercise”
remain to improve our health!? Why do people foolishly believe in taiji “religion” and get so crazy for
it!?

How about baji? So many people trained in baji for their entire lives, but they never learned
how to be soft and therefore could never improve their skills… There are many branches of baji in
China. Many of them have separate forms called “hard baji” and “soft baji.”

Sifu Liu learned unique skills from grandmaster Li Xu-Wen at a later stage of his life. He did
not use “forms.” Instead, he studied “basics.” The training started from hard first and then soft; at
the end it reached the stage of “hard and soft mutually support each other (剛柔相濟).” This is the
ultimate achievement!
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:56 am

Bob wrote:Sifu Liu learned unique skills from grandmaster Li Xu-Wen at a later stage of his life. He did
not use “forms.”
Instead, he studied “basics.” The training started from hard first and then soft; at
the end it reached the stage of “hard and soft mutually support each other (剛柔相濟).” This is the
ultimate achievement!


Good approach. Get rid of the forms until later. Focus mainly on only jibengong and simple drills.

Interesting that Hsu couldn’t learn enough softness from Baji and had to get it from Taijiquan. This is what I’ve been thinking about most “external arts”. Very hard to develop softness and deep relaxation from them. I don’t really about what is internal or external, the problems are practical and the same for all of us. How do you develop real relaxation and how do you develop real power? From where do you start, how do you reach one end, and then from there, how do you reach the second end? It’s not a question about style or internal vs external, but a practical issue on how to practice to reach something.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7149
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:40 am

Interesting,

in Taiwan where I practiced there was a local baji teacher with one student. They did a lot of hard body conditioning practices, against cement walls and trees while at the same time stressing extreme relaxation. he mentioned that his teacher used to also practice taiji and combined some of the basic principles into the baji practice.

Felt it was a good approach.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7622
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bob on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:28 am

Interesting note that Liu Yunqiao was well-versed in Yang style taiji (also a version of the taiji jian and dao) wonder why he did not teach that to Adam Hsu rather than sending him for Chen style instruction.

Xiao baji jia, when trained properly, is indeed "internal" along with the baji neigong that was taught from the beginning. Also da qiang training has a distinct "internal" phase of training.
Last edited by Bob on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby SPJ on Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:03 pm

For the sake of discussion

1 extra long spear practice da Qiana

The whole body structure frame is to be developed. The stepping and wielding the spear are to develop the whole body Jin.

2 Chan si Jin are focused both in Taiji and Baji. There are many drills for hand wrist arm elbow waist shoulder back chest and stepping.

3 Kao is stressed both in taiji and baji. There are many drills for different body parts.
Hanging bags practice etc.

In general, small frame baji has the body structure or frame.

Large frame baji focused on kao.

Just open a big bag of worms.
User avatar
SPJ
Wuji
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:20 am
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bob on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Insightful, Spj - da qiang training can also express heng ha breathing - found in Chen style taijiquan but i don't know deep level training in Chen's taiji so I don't know if that is the same.

It might be on the basis of what Adam Hsu wrote that Liu Yunqiao, after meeting with Chen Fake, stated that fajin in baji & Chen's taiji were very similar.
Last edited by Bob on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bob on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:23 am

Not to argue about whether this "real/authentic" Yang Style or Chen Style taijiquan but these are the abstracted (meaning drawn out from the longer respective forms) that are generally taught in the Wu Tan system - they are the ones taught by Liu Yunqiao - the 36 Chen style short form of Du Yu Ze is different.

This is simply a point of reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5eoDPBwug0

Abstracted Yang Style Taijiquan taught by Liu Yunqiao



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA0Sk9XA-Nc

Abstracted Chen Style Taijiquan taught by Liu Yunqiao



Softness within hardness, if I look things over, has always been blended into the curriculum I learned - below is the first material taught in bagua i.e. xiao kai men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrLbzjTYq4

Xiao Kai Men as taught by Liu Yun Qiao



At 65+ years (age) this would be how I prefer to practice baji - close to the rhythm of xiao baji jia along with da qiang exercises and baji neigong along with the Yang forms. For my "retirement" preference practice the Xing Yi Neigong (Cartmell/Bisio), Xing Yi 5 element, and Xing Yi Da Qiang work well (Winter season tend to go more into bagua like our ding shi , xiao kai men and brick work - softness blended with hardness but definitely not like a 20 year old baji practitioner.

To keep myself honest with applications, Liu He Duan Chui (six harmony short punch) - form, segments of the form & single moving postures/applications - the center of eveything I ever learned and a 3.5 mile daily hike (regardless of weather) along the beaver marsh of Cuyahoga Valley National Park LOL

It's my take but Note the warning by Damon Huang regarding practicing the baji flavor found in the clip


A different BajiQuan, performed by Damon W.J. Hwang (黃偉哲) in Feb 2002, Taipei - a memory to my dearest Master Liu, Yun-Chiao who died in 1992.
(西元2002年2月2日 - 劉雲樵先師仙逝十週年追思紀念會在 台北世新大學 的表演)
*** Warning *** This is a show only, not the original practice. Do not follow the video for your actual exercise.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRIDAT4RZOU

Last edited by Bob on Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:11 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRIDAT4RZOU

I always wonder the purpose of our CMA training. Do we want to

1. do a form very good? or
2. use a principle/technique very good?

Does 1 and 2 use the same training path, or different? I had a chance to be Liu"s student back in 1980. I decided to take to other path instead.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9107
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby everything on Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:59 pm

I want to be able to achieve "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" in whatever activity is interesting. I want to do form well in the sense of "moving well"/"aging well" (in terms of external movement) as a sort of "functional movement screen". Doing form well should help with the first idea, though. It could be shadow boxing. It could be agility ladders. It could be MA forms. It could be plies. Every complicated movement art/sport has some kind of "form" to help the "function".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5167
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:21 pm

If you spend all your training time in form, you will have good form. If you also train heavy bag, training equipment, partner drills, sparring/wrestling, you won't spend that much time in form training. Your form will not be that good.

When I repeat a combo (such as hammer fist, groin kick, face punch) 20 times, I feel great. I just don't get the same satisfaction through the form training. If my form has 60 moves, after 1 form training, I just repeat each move only once. Unless I repeat my form 20 times, I won't get the same training result.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9107
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby Bob on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:40 pm

If you know baji, as taught by Liu Yunqiao, forms have never been the center piece of the system - it's never either/or.

100 moving one punches in execution does not make a form - almost every posture in a baji form can also be drilled as a single moving posture and is often drilled with a partner holding a shield. Single moving partner drills are often shown and trained in before linked into a form.

There are no forms with the da qiang training but there are two person drills.

Demonstration of a well executed form and application training & jiben gong are not mutually exclusive - Adam Hsu has espoused this over his life time - his application dvd exemplifies this.

If forms are what someone wants then baji will always disappoint them.
Last edited by Bob on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Bob
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3183
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:28 am
Location: Akron, Ohio

Re: Liu Yunqiao, Baji & Taiji

Postby johnwang on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm

Bob wrote:If you know baji, as taught by Liu Yunqiao, forms have never been the center piece of the system .

I agree with what Adam Hsu has said, "form is only the desert. It's not the main meal." I like to do the Baji drills. I don't like to do the Baji form.
I'm still allergy to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9107
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm


Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest