What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Kanken on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:47 pm

Could be interesting for some people here:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/0824834917/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_KJIlDbVXNZCWE

It is „Gods, Ghosts, and Gangsters: Ritual Violence, Martial Arts, and Masculinity on the Margins of Chinese Society„ written by Prof. Boretz (https://hk.linkedin.com/in/aboretz1).

Some interesting quotes from his book:

These “ritual militias” are among the least studied topics of Chinese popular culture. This is surprising because anthropologists of modern China such as David Jordan have suggested that, in the past, “each village actually had soldiers for combat purposes.” 31 He observes that it is upon militias that martial arts groups who participate in temple festivals are based, saying that these processions of a temple’s “soldiers” represent a “god’s army” just as an emperor or general would proceed with his military forces. Moreover, Jordan claims, these troupes are trained on the basis of specific traditions of martial arts as well as on the basis of “classical novels.” 32 As we will see, this claim is consistent with historical circumstances.


More recently Stephan Feuchtwang has placed these local traditions of martial arts in relation to ritual training and spirit possession. He observes village protection bands who are “taught by masters of a tradition of martial arts practicing disciplines partly of possession by invoked deities


Martial arts traditions that emerge during the late Ming uprisings, such as the “Plum-Flower Fist” (meihuaquan), make use of weapons that are by that time quite uniquely associated with Li Nezha, like his “Wind and Fire Wheel” (fenghuolun). 93 As shown in Zhou Weiliang’s study of martial arts, the Plum-Flower Fist tradition is deeply rooted in the practice of rural militias that bring sacrifices to their gods. This correlation continues into the Qing dynasty, and the divinely strengthened warriors of the Plum-Flower Fist tradition end up participating in the Boxer Rebellion. 94 As I explained in the introduction, the Boxers represent martial traditions that revolve around trance possession by gods known from novels like Canonization, Three Kingdoms, and Watermargin. In reference to the specific martial arts tradition of the Plum-Flower Fist, Meir Shahar remarks that the north China plains witnessed “the spread of military brotherhoods with religious overtones, which were sometimes referred to as [associations] and sometimes as [religion].” 95 Clearly these brotherhoods perpetuate models of practice that correspond with those of the religious militias of the Yuan, with warriors fighting under the tutelage of gods.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Scott with more on mime in tai chi and power in Internal Martial Arts.

Scott Park Phillips
Published on Jul 16, 2019

Scott discusses the indisputable fact that Mime is part of Chen style Tai Chi. He then explains the four elements of power in Internal Martial Arts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RagX48zwr74
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:59 pm

No, Mime is not a part of Tai Chi and it's not an indisputable fact. He gets everything wrong, upside down. How power in Tai Chi should come from miming boggles my mind. :P
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:09 pm

Kanken wrote:Could be interesting for some people here:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/0824834917/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_KJIlDbVXNZCWE

It is „Gods, Ghosts, and Gangsters: Ritual Violence, Martial Arts, and Masculinity on the Margins of Chinese Society„ written by Prof. Boretz (https://hk.linkedin.com/in/aboretz1).

Some interesting quotes from his book:


Interesting, yes. Thanks for sharing. What should be in mind though is when fighting they are actually fighting, they don't play or act. The performance or ritual is something around the violence. You can compare what's in your quotes with Roman Gladiator games. They were told in stories, fighters representing gods and people from the myths. But they were trained fighters. The training was real training for real combat. The training was far from theatre. It is here where Mr Phillips messes up everything. To learn combat you cannot approach it as dance or theatre. Combat can be part of a play. The actual combat is not.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Kanken on Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:42 pm

It is not only the play, it is about religious belief which are also present in the play and the combat.
Religion is part of the personality and it influences the fighting and the theatre.
Martial Arts are for fighting, of course. Their training roots in the belief system of the practitioner. Ghosts, Gods, demons, chanting etc. have always been part of it and where also used in the fighting as Prof. Boretz shows in his book.

It is not so easy to separate Martial Arts from the fighting, the belief system, the religious practice and the theater. Everything is connected, or better: was connected until the beginning of the 20th century.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:19 am

Kanken wrote:It is not only the play, it is about religious belief which are also present in the play and the combat.
Religion is part of the personality and it influences the fighting and the theatre.
Martial Arts are for fighting, of course. Their training roots in the belief system of the practitioner. Ghosts, Gods, demons, chanting etc. have always been part of it and where also used in the fighting as Prof. Boretz shows in his book.

It is not so easy to separate Martial Arts from the fighting, the belief system, the religious practice and the theater. Everything is connected, or better: was connected until the beginning of the 20th century.


Most of Chinese martial arts have their root in warfare which is different from village wrestling and similar. They were not created by people trying to mimic animals or being possessed by spirits. China has a very long tradition of warfare and military strategy. China also had a very strict ideal (Junzi) of how to act and behave. This ideal depicted the rules and behavior in society and there was a very strict hierarchy as well. Religious possesion and worship in China belong to ancient times, narrow sects and areas outside what was China Yesterday. Most of what Mr Phillips is jabbering about is his interpretation of more recent times. He clearly has no broader understanding of Chinese culture and Martial Arts. He is a dancer.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Kanken on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:29 am

I do not care about Mr. Phillips or what he says. I don‘t know him.
My post was only about the connection between martial arts, religion and theatre as it is seen from an academic viewpoint.
If somebody is interested in the connection he could read the book. Prof. Boretz gives a lot of footnotes with further (academic) literature.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:42 am

Kanken wrote:If somebody is interested in the connection he could read the book. Prof. Boretz gives a lot of footnotes with further (academic) literature.


A very good tip indeed. I will take a look at it. Thank you again.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Kanken on Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:10 am

I have to apologise but the quotes above are not from the book of Prof. Boretz, they are from „Demonic Warfare: Daoism, Territorial Networks, and the History of a Ming Novel“

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B013E0JH7E/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_t0XlDb6YNKTEC

by Prof. Meulenbeld (https://www.polyu.edu.hk/cc/en/people/academic-staff/dr-mark-meulenbeld)

I read his book and the book by Prof. Boretz parallel and interchanged the books while searching my notes for the quotes.

Both books are worth a read with lots of information about the topic.

Sorry for the wrong source for the quotes.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:38 am

Bao wrote:No, Mime is not a part of Tai Chi and it's not an indisputable fact. He gets everything wrong, upside down. How power in Tai Chi should come from miming boggles my mind. :P

Without me opining, that's not what Scott said (in red). Here is what he did say.
Scott Park Phillips wrote:@ 14:10, can you fight with shenfa? Yes, for in fighting. Because, you want to create space to hit. But, you create space that can also hit you. So, you want to take away space. That’s a whole other thing. You use your shenfa to take away space when you’re close in fighting. But for generating power? No. You don’t use shenfa. That’s a mistake. Many, many masters make this mistake.

@ 16:42, So, how is power generated? It comes from 4 things.
Physics:
Types of power are gravity or the drop step, momentum = mass times x velocity and spinning.

Internal:
1) Empty — Your body has to be empty of intent (no telegraphing). This causes cognitive dissonance which stalls them. It creates an illusion. You are doing something different than what you appear to be doing.
2) Counter balance — You have to counter balance (neutralize) all incoming forces. Otherwise, you'll end up with force against force. Your form shouldn't vary at all. Otherwise, you would have to use technique to get around someone's force. There can’t be any angle changing.
3) Whole-body unity — Connectivity has to be constant. There's no break anywhere. When they touch you, they feel all of your mass. Your single unit. That’s how you get all the gravity tricks.
4) Up power or the illusion of up power — Anytime they touch, you are back. They keep not wanting to go (?).

Then, there is 3 ways that this is applied (that Scott knows of):
1) The George Xu method: I touch you and force you to unconsciously choose whether to keep your balance or to keep your structure.
2) The Chen Zhonghua method: You are rotating around a still point. They use the same trick.
Touch so there is a cognitive disorientation about whether or not a person should balance or keep their structure. And, you take the space away. You seize them, na. Then, you grind them up like in a blender with no resistance.
3) Na (seize) which you see in Yang style: you unbalance them so quickly that they try to use their structure against you. They stick to you in order to keep their structure so that they don't fall over. Then, you control them as a rigid unit.

Scott has stated some of his ideas are "based on the innovations of Master George Xu."
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:33 am

All you have to do is forget what he's saying and watch him move with the sound off. That should tell you all you need to know about the validity of his theories on power generation.



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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:33 am

I did some fight training with marcel Marceau
I must have missed something because I couldn't get out of the box and my opponent could enter at will
I was thinking of going to Scott for further instruction
Then I saw the clips above
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:44 pm

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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby aamc on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:44 pm

I actually like what Scott does, sure its not the real deal, or his understanding is wrong and so on. You know what I don't care, you can only manifest yourself at that time and this is what this is. Its an honest expression of himself, with all its mixed-up, multiple influences, patched work quilt of experiences and I for one love it. Its what I expect of arts that get shared, they change, become other things and morph from their original source. You look at his performances and you know who Mr Phillips is.
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Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:04 pm

marvin8 wrote: That’s a whole other thing. You use your shenfa to take away space when you’re close in fighting. But for generating power? No. You don’t use shenfa. That’s a mistake. Many, many masters make this mistake.


Just another thing that proves how confused he is. He said some jibberish about rooting as well.

I can't take his words seriously, but still I don't judge his skill. To be fair, I've heard good things about him from people who met him, especially about his push hands. So for my own taste I guess he is a bit too much of an entertainer who in a childish way likes to provoke and troll the Tai Chi community for attention. Still, I wouldn't judge him too hard and especially not his skill without meeting up with him.
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