Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:22 am

dspyrido wrote:
Trick wrote:
wiesiek wrote:btw, anyway
quite often you may have a chance to grab adversary clothes...

Yes, just look at the hockey brawlers, pull the shirt over the other guys head and there you go.... one of my CMA teachers did that on me while sparring, I still managed to plant a punch in his face


You guys must have a great working relationship.

Some cma systems teach clothes manipulation as part of chin-na. I only did it briefly but if I was going to learn controlling clothes it would be a better way to go or if time permits a good addon to any gi/jacket methods because it is taught more realistically. For example it does not make much sense to learn to pull a jacket over someones head in a gi class. It does when someone is wearing a jacket that does not close up in the front.

In learning about clothes manipulation it struck me as a sub-style that if it's important to someone is probably a better way to learn how to utilize it properly.

As for some hockey players I’m not sure but think they don’t train to pull the shirt, it comes naturally(think girls fight with hair pulling). And after brawling a lot this way some probably get skilled at it ?

As for the instance when I got my jacket pulled aver my head, it was winter our practice area had quite a few icy spots, so the sparring somewhat came to resemble a hockey “brawl” 8-)
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Ian on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:12 am

You don't need jackets to make judo work on the street. It's good to be familiar with using some material.







Plus, slams obviously work on the street - o goshi, uki goshi, utsuri goshi, ushiro goshi, ura nage etc. Straight out of the gokyo, and none of them require jackets.



Wrestling and bjj also have their strengths and are worth learning. Combine all three, then you feel comfortable in summer and winter, on your feet and on the ground.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:01 pm

dspyrido wrote:
middleway wrote:- Most people in my area of the world will be wearing jackets for about 75% of the year :)
- It is only the dominant method for the people who trained it from an early age, outside of that we see some great Judoka (Rousey) and obviously a huge amount of BJJ people dominating.


Jackets - makes sense but see the note above about the specifics of jacket training. Just because someone wheres a jacket does not mean the details translate to/from gi.

Yes, more than one trainer/fighter has said that training gi techniques is "counter productive" when one plans to use them in only no gi situations (e.g., MMA, self defense):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-OL42CXulI

dspyrido wrote:Wrestling dominance - I can't think of any current bjj or judo top ranking title holder in UFC. A quick look over UFC top fighters and at a guess it's about 80% or more that have a wrestling base. The rest is a mix. Even top 3 for heavyweight, light heavyeight, middleweight etc. any non-wrestlers are an annomally.

Also it is important to consider what works in general vs. the exception. For example Steve Wonderboy is an excellent kicker from a karate background but is an exception in UFC. I wouldn't be recommending people mimic his style unless they really had the drive and body type for it.

But wrestling is clearly dominating.

https://www.vividseats.com/blog/ufc-champions-fighting-style

Khabib Nurmagomedov (lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Jon Jones (light heavyweight champion) claims he uses and learned judo moves "watching Judo on YouTube." Olympic judo gold medalist Kayla Harrison is the favorite to win PFL's $1 million women's lightweight championship. Some wrestling and judo techniques are similar.

"Wrestling is clearly dominating" is misleading. Yes, many UFC male fighters started wrestling on their jr. high or high school wrestling team (for free). However, they started training striking before becoming champion. Stipe Miocic (heavyweight champion ) wrestled. But, he was also a Cleveland Amateur Golden Gloves boxing champion. Most, if not all, UFC champions train and use striking as part of their fighting style. More UFC fights are won by knockout than submission.

Excerpt from "Number of knockouts and submissions in the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) from 2014 to 2017:"
David Lange on Aug 9, 2019 wrote:
Image

The number of knockouts and submissions in the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) has kept roughly the same proportions over recent years with 145 knockouts and 80 submissions in 2017. This correlates with the number of fights taking place which also been close to same in since 2014. The preferred type of submission move is the rear naked choke.


dspyrido wrote:The thing to note is look at the last 5 years vs. UFC history. In the last 5 years there would not be any judo/bjj rankings. The game has changed and this is even in the light of the world wide popularity growth of both styles. As you say - it seems easier to find schools in these areas but it does not correlate to what is dominating in the octagon.

False. Khabib Nurmagomedov (current lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Also, Ronda Rousey, Olympic judo bronze medalist, was UFC champion until November 14, 2015, when she was TKO'd by Holly Holm who has a boxing and kickboxing background. "What is dominating in the Octagon" is training in multiple disciplines, preparing oneself to work through all ranges.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:38 pm

marvin8 wrote:Khabib Nurmagomedov (lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Jon Jones (light heavyweight champion) claims he uses and learned judo moves "watching Judo on YouTube." Olympic judo gold medalist Kayla Harrison is the favorite to win PFL's $1 million women's lightweight championship. Some wrestling and judo techniques are similar.


Information bias. You could have picked many others to bias the view but Khabib? For starters you forgot to mention he is also trained in Sambo & Pankration but he is through and through a wrestler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabib_Nurmagomedov

As is common with many children in Dagestan, he began wrestling from an early age: he started at the age of eight under the tutelage of his father Abdulmanap Nurmagomedov


Just ask this poor bear.


(BTW I don't condone this but he looks about 8 and geeze what a way to start in wrestling. Some real character building going on.)

And Dagestan? It's major culture is wrestling! This is a list of Dagestani born wrestlers who won Olympic medals (they do compete in other areas but born & most likely raised there):

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/friv/birthplaces.cgi?id=11356

Judo appears ... once.

As for Jon Jones ... ah he's a wrestler by background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Jones
Before beginning his MMA career, Jones was a stand-out high school wrestler and state champion at Union-Endicott High School in upstate New York


Does use some Judo? Well it is MMA. I am pretty sure they did not learn to kick in wrestling.

marvin8 wrote:False. Khabib Nurmagomedov (current lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Also, Ronda Rousey, Olympic judo bronze medalist, was UFC champion until November 14, 2015, when she was TKO'd by Holly Holm who has a boxing and kickboxing background. "What is dominating in the Octagon" is training in multiple disciplines, preparing oneself to work through all ranges.


Rousey? Aside from being middle ages UFC history name another Judo based UFC ranking champ? Not even sure about any with this base in the current top 3 of any weight division. Or even other Judo based champs in the history of UFC.

Let's name a few wrestler based current champs - not just contenders:

- DC
- Jones
- Stipe (yes he is also a good boxer)
- Usman
- Cejudo
- Khabib

Even others that are not always apparent have strong wrestling base/backgrounds:

- TJ, 3x NCAA qualifer
- Whittaker (if he was not in the UFC he would have been shipped off the commonwealth games - perhaps olympics if he did well enough)
- Tyrone Woodley, 2 time All American
- and the list can go on

These are the facts. Try to produce a current list that even looks remotely like this for any other discipline in the UFC in the last 5 years.

Wrestling as a base for MMA is dominant in the UFC.

Back to the topic. SJ or Judo? Wrestling & variants without a gi or jacket should not be overlooked.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:33 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Khabib Nurmagomedov (lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Jon Jones (light heavyweight champion) claims he uses and learned judo moves "watching Judo on YouTube." Olympic judo gold medalist Kayla Harrison is the favorite to win PFL's $1 million women's lightweight championship. Some wrestling and judo techniques are similar.


Information bias. You could have picked many others to bias the view but Khabib? For starters you forgot to mention he is also trained in Sambo & Pankration but he is through and through a wrestler.

And Dagestan? It's major culture is wrestling! This is a list of Dagestani born wrestlers who won Olympic medals (they do compete in other areas but born & most likely raised there):

https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/friv/birthplaces.cgi?id=11356

Judo appears ... once.

As for Jon Jones ... ah he's a wrestler by background. . . .

Does use some Judo? Well it is MMA. I am pretty sure they did not learn to kick in wrestling.

You are being biased by ignoring some of the statements and facts posted. I didn't forget to mention that Khabib is a two-time Combat Sambo World Champion, I just didn't. However, it further supports the fact that Khabib doesn't rely solely on wrestling. Strikes are an important part of his fighting style which he trains at AKA in San Jose, CA, US:
marvin8 wrote:Yes, many UFC male fighters started wrestling on their jr. high or high school wrestling team (for free). However, they started training striking before becoming champion. . . . Most, if not all, UFC champions train and use striking as part of their fighting style. More UFC fights are won by knockout than submission.

- Khabib vs McGregor
Image

Here is a fighter from Dagestan that trains striking and kicking, not only wrestling.

RT Sport
Premiered Aug 16, 2019

RT Sport presents the serialized documentary film ‘Dagestan: Land of Warriors’ exploring one of Russia’s North Caucasus regions which, despite its modest size and population, it produces top-level martial artists year-on-year.

In the first episode, we meet local fighter Timur Valiev, who hosts young American prospect Paul Capaldo in his hometown. The two met in New Jersey, where Timur regularly prepares for his fights in the US. Having trained with the likes of UFC stars Frankie Edgar, Eddie Alvarez, and Marlon Moraes under the supervision of coaches Mark Henry, Ricardo Almeida, and Nick Catone, they travel to Dagestan, where Paul gets to learn firsthand about the fighting culture of the home region of UFC lightweight champion Khabib Nurmagomedov and many other notable MMA fighters and martial artists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l027P8kkQDw

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:False. Khabib Nurmagomedov (current lightweight champion) is a black belt in judo. Also, Ronda Rousey, Olympic judo bronze medalist, was UFC champion until November 14, 2015, when she was TKO'd by Holly Holm who has a boxing and kickboxing background. "What is dominating in the Octagon" is training in multiple disciplines, preparing oneself to work through all ranges.


Rousey? Aside from being middle ages UFC history name another Judo based UFC ranking champ? Not even sure about any with this base in the current top 3 of any weight division. Or even other Judo based champs in the history of UFC.

You said there is "not any. . . in the last 5 years." However, 4 years ago, Rousey was UFC's Women Bantamweight Champion:
dspyrido wrote:The thing to note is look at the last 5 years vs. UFC history. In the last 5 years there would not be any judo/bjj rankings. The game has changed and this is even in the light of the world wide popularity growth of both styles. As you say - it seems easier to find schools in these areas but it does not correlate to what is dominating in the octagon.


dspyrido wrote:Let's name a few wrestler based current champs - not just contenders:

Below, all of these "wrestlers" win by KO (striking). Ben Askren over-relies on his wrestling skills and gets KO'd.

- DC vs Miocic 1:
Image

- Jones vs DC:
Image

- Stipe (yes he is also a good boxer) vs DC 2:
Image

- Cejudo vs Dillashaw:
Image

- Masvidal vs Askren (freestyle olympian, two-time NCAA champion):
Image

dspyrido wrote:Back to the topic. SJ or Judo? Wrestling & variants without a gi or jacket should not be overlooked.

Wrestling is more valuable than judo or SJ. Because, it trains no gi, doesn't rely on gi grips, shoots from long range, less rules, includes leg attacks, trips and throws.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:54 am

Just seek out your nearest Glima instructor(or travel to Iceland and combine your wrestling practice with a cool vacation) and you’ll get all levels of wrestling, from Lausa-tök to Brokar-tök.......http://www.viking-glima.com/styles.html
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby middleway on Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:16 am

Yes, more than one trainer/fighter has said that training gi techniques is "counter productive" when one plans to use them in only no gi situations (e.g., MMA, self defense):


Cool, I would wager I have more experience of 'real' (i hate that term but i mean street scraps) fights than Mr Dewey. Almost every one of them involved someone either gripping my clothing or me gripping theirs. Further, in that environment, even at the height of summer i was never in what i would call a 'no gi' situation.

MMA and self defence have a different set of considerations, security (especially in the UK) a further different set of considerations too. For the record, the best bouncer in my area, an ex training partner of mine, was a British Judoka. He was renowned and feared.

To be clear, I am not against No-Gi (i am a No-Gi & Gi Brit champ), I am also not against wrestling, it is superb, and i train it every week!

But, my point still stands that, for the opening poster, it should be more about finding the best grappling gym they can find, A good Judo Gym will be better than a shitty Wrestling one, A good wrestling one better than a shitty Judo one... Thats the real battle.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Trick on Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:29 am

some personel at certain work areas wear clip-on ties
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:40 pm

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Back to the topic. SJ or Judo? Wrestling & variants without a gi or jacket should not be overlooked.

Wrestling is more valuable than judo or SJ. Because, it trains no gi, doesn't rely on gi grips, shoots from long range, less rules, includes leg attacks, trips and throws.


Regarding the rest of your post...I did say it's mma and that striking was not learnt in wrestling etc etc

As for the above point - we agree on something except for the word valuable. I value the other styles equally as they are excellent systems and cultural references. I just think wrestling and it's openness should not be underestimated and it's impact in mma is clearly supporting this.

middleway wrote:But, my point still stands that, for the opening poster, it should be more about finding the best grappling gym they can find, A good Judo Gym will be better than a shitty Wrestling one, A good wrestling one better than a shitty Judo one... Thats the real battle.


Agree with that but to add.

Each method brings something unique to the equation that needs to be felt & learnt. Freestyle wrestling is faster than gi and teaches grips that are easy to pull off when clothes are added. But it won't teach the specific clothes grips. It also forces amazing reaction speed to momentum based attacks with twists and turns of the body in mid flight that make awareness of 360 degrees of a circle. But the lack of submissions opens up behaviours that are dangerous as well (eg face down sprawl).

Going back to the OP - SJ or Judo? As you say pick the best place to base out of. Then be aware of others and try to find other good places to cross train at.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:08 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Back to the topic. SJ or Judo? Wrestling & variants without a gi or jacket should not be overlooked.

Wrestling is more valuable than judo or SJ because, it trains no gi, doesn't rely on gi grips, shoots from long range, less rules, includes leg attacks, trips and throws.


Regarding the rest of your post...I did say it's mma and that striking was not learnt in wrestling etc etc

You said, "wrestling is clearly dominating" which can be misleading. A more accurate statement is "MMA has evolved. Wrestling with striking is dominating now."

dspyrido wrote:As for the above point - we agree on something except for the word valuable. I value the other styles equally as they are excellent systems and cultural references. I just think wrestling and it's openness should not be underestimated and it's impact in mma is clearly supporting this.

Depending on what one is seeking, one style may be more valuable than the other. If one wants to learn leg takedowns, judo is less valuable. Because, many judo clubs will practice under sport judo rules. If one wants to learn sleeve gripping, shuai jiao is less valuable because of the short sleeve uniforms. If one wants to learn no gi techniques, wrestling may be more efficient/valuable. Although once learned (time), judo and shuai jiao techniques can be used with alternate type grips (e.g., underhooks, overhooks, head control, clothing, etc.).

dspyrido wrote:
middleway wrote:But, my point still stands that, for the opening poster, it should be more about finding the best grappling gym they can find, A good Judo Gym will be better than a shitty Wrestling one, A good wrestling one better than a shitty Judo one... Thats the real battle.


Agree with that but to add.

Each method brings something unique to the equation that needs to be felt & learnt. Freestyle wrestling is faster than gi and teaches grips that are easy to pull off when clothes are added. But it won't teach the specific clothes grips. It also forces amazing reaction speed to momentum based attacks with twists and turns of the body in mid flight that make awareness of 360 degrees of a circle. But the lack of submissions opens up behaviours that are dangerous as well (eg face down sprawl).

Going back to the OP - SJ or Judo? As you say pick the best place to base out of. Then be aware of others and try to find other good places to cross train at.

Some Judo and shuai jiao competition throws are high risk low reward (e.g., shoulder throw, etc.). Those can be eliminated for self defense. Some of the judo and shuai jiao throws are similar and can be learned most anywhere.

Good training should include not only learning technique but footwork, positioning, off balancing, opportunities, etc. Judo has more high level competition and competitors than shuai jiao. Therefore, high level judo educational information is more widely available.

At 3:01,
Stu Ramos on Nov 27, 2018 wrote:Jason has never taken a shot. He doesn’t shoot. His wrestling game plan is very simple. If you bend down and he crunches your head, he is going to sweep your feet. If you stand up and he is able to trap your head he’s going to throw you forward. He doesn’t headlock. He traps the head. Two different stories. The throws that he’s using is O soto gari, Uchi mata and underhand Tai otoshi, then footsweeps. From the outside in: outside sticker inside kouchi gari. Inside ouchi gari, kouchi gari. Then, outside on the other side, osoto gari. He works across the hip.


Stu Ramos
40 subscribers

Coach Stu reaction to Jason Morris wrestling highlight. Jason was the winning-est wrestler to come out of New York with a record of 162-4 and a D-1 all American for Syracuse University.
Original video was made by Nick Kossor instagram:@nkossor:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkDPupbnuAU
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:19 pm

Re: just joining a wrestling club. I tried that. Maybe the UK is different, but wrestling is something you have to have started in your youth for the most part. I've tried to join wrestling team practices, find catch as catch can clubs, etc...Good luck. Much easier to find a judo club which is usually cheap, and has lots of randori partners. Shuai Jiao is fine too, so long as you get a good teacher with a big club.

That said, I always give the most respect to wresters. I came up and passed my 20s and 30s mixing it up and wrestlers were the ones who gave me the most trouble. I got thrashed at work on matting, sand, or wood chips by this super short but natural specimen wrestler every fucking day for years. BJJ Kurt used to work for my boss before I was there, so it was a rough and tumble, fuck it all, crew. We sparred, wrestled, and did plenty of other stuff to survive all the digging and mixing concrete by hand. there were only a few bjj guys, including a Gracie cousin who could fend Mike off--not beat him, mind you.

But, I trained and he got older, and I had to go back to that construction job. By then, when I was about 30 and competing in college most weekends and training pretty hard during the week (non trad student), I had his number. I think what he had on me, in the beginning, was hours wrestling on the mat. Once I surpassed him in time on the mat, I could take him every time, eventually.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:09 am

dspyrido wrote:Information bias. You could have picked many others to bias the view but Khabib? For starters you forgot to mention he is also trained in Sambo & Pankration but he is through and through a wrestler.

Khabib's base is Combat Sambo (e.g., strikes, throws, kicks, grappling, etc.), not just wrestling. Khabib, Fedor Emelianenko and Andrei Arlovski are all Combat Sambo fighters who brought their skills to MMA. (Khabib is co-founder of Eagles MMA shown in the posted "'Land of Warriors’: Welcome to Dagestan")

At 2:01,
Khabib Nurmagomedov wrote:We are Combat Sambo fighters. Combat Sambo is everything; takedowns, leg locks, arm locks, chokes. You can do everything. Why we become so strong is because we're competition in here. In Combat Sambo, we can use head, kick in balls, head butt. . . . And, now Chael Sonnen talk about we’re not sambo fighters we’re only wrestling. Hey, please, wrestling is much easier than Combat Sambo. Because, I am wrestling too. When I was young I competition in wrestling, judo, Greco Roman. It’s much easier.

BJJSCOUT
Published on Apr 6, 2018

An overview of the diverse skill set Khabib carries over to MMA from his Combat Sambo base. Details on his cage wrestling moves are also explored:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5P-N7L1qu8
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Re: just joining a wrestling club. I tried that. Maybe the UK is different, but wrestling is something you have to have started in your youth for the most part. I've tried to join wrestling team practices, find catch as catch can clubs, etc...Good luck. Much easier to find a judo club which is usually cheap, and has lots of randori partners. Shuai Jiao is fine too, so long as you get a good teacher with a big club.


Why was it hard to join the team practices? I wrestled younger but left it for a few decades and then went out hunting clubs. I can't think of any place that would be a problem to join which includes mma, wrestling, judo, the rare catch guy, bjj, sambo and sj. Some catered better for oldies but in the end none seemed to say no. Come to think of it everyone was pretty courteous barring a little inter coach rivalry.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:Khabib's base is Combat Sambo (e.g., strikes, throws, kicks, grappling, etc.), not just wrestling. Khabib, Fedor Emelianenko and Andrei Arlovski are all Combat Sambo fighters who brought their skills to MMA. (Khabib is co-founder of Eagles MMA shown in the posted "'Land of Warriors’: Welcome to Dagestan")


You're not understanding what a base is.

Anyway he started in wrestling. The dagis specialise in wrestling. My coach was the ref of some of Khabib's and other family members amateur mma and submission fights. Their base is wrestling. They add in combat sambo and pankration to round out their mma. Some who do sambo add in judo. If they go mma they add in kickboxing/mt etc.

But at the heart of his skull crushing bone compressing method is wrestling - mixed in with the other stuff... as I've said it's MMA.
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Re: Shuai Jiao or Judo?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:18 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Khabib's base is Combat Sambo (e.g., strikes, throws, kicks, grappling, etc.), not just wrestling. Khabib, Fedor Emelianenko and Andrei Arlovski are all Combat Sambo fighters who brought their skills to MMA. (Khabib is co-founder of Eagles MMA shown in the posted "'Land of Warriors’: Welcome to Dagestan")


You're not understanding what a base is.

You may not understand what base is. Are you disagreeing with Khabib and BJJ Scout—"An overview of the diverse skill set Khabib carries over to MMA from his Combat Sambo base?"

dspyrido wrote:Anyway he started in wrestling. The dagis specialise in wrestling.

It doesn't matter what he started in. What matters are all the Combat Sambo based skills (e.g., striking to grappling) Khabib brought with him to the UFC.

Some dagis specialize in only wrestling with hopes of qualifying for the Olympics. Other dagis like Khabib do Combat Sambo which is based on more than just wrestling.

dspyrido wrote:My coach was the ref of some of Khabib's and other family members amateur mma and submission fights. Their base is wrestling. They add in combat sambo and pankration to round on ut thereir mma. Some who do sambo add in judo. If they go mma they add in kickboxing/mt etc.

But at the heart of his skull crushing bone compressing method is wrestling - mixed in with the other stuff... as I've said it's MMA.

Khabib said he trained and used Combat Sambo which is already based on punches, kicks, elbows and knees, headbutts and groin strikes, in addition to throws, holds, chokes and locks. Punches, kicks and throws don't need to be "added" to Combat Sambo:
Khabib Nurmagomedov wrote:We are Combat Sambo fighters. . . . And, now Chael Sonnen talk about we’re not sambo fighters we’re only wrestling. Hey, please, wrestling is much easier than Combat Sambo. Because, I am wrestling too. When I was young I competition in wrestling, judo, Greco Roman. It’s much easier.
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