Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

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Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Storm on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:32 pm

I am interested in a short overview of the Xinyiliuhequan techniques and would like to ask a knowledgeable forum member to comment on it. Specifically:
1. I have the book translated by Mr. J. Crandall on Henan Orthodox Xingyi Quan. In it I did not find any mentions of non-animal related fist techniques. On some videos I saw some so I wonder: do "pure" fist techniques belong to the style or more to a branch/substyle?
2. The book shows several variations/techniques per animal. There is a video from a master from Benbu city in Anhui (lineage Song Guobin) and he shows mostly 1 technique per animal. Is this substyle (e.g. Song Guobin vs Lu Song'gao) specific? Is there something like an average (3-4 lines/techniques per animal)?
3. The book describes several forms- I assume this is also substyle specific- are some forms common to all? (e.g. Si Ba, and therefore assumably the starting/original forms).
Unfortunately beside the book of Mr. Crandall I did not find any other book in English so any information is much appreciated. Thank you.
Last edited by Storm on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby dspyrido on Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:16 pm

This is all IMO because there is no governing body of xylh or reference bible....

1. Non-animal related fists - they vary from location to location. I found that Shanghai xylh had more of them than was taught by those in Honan. That said the fists were basics and are there because a new student just does not have the coordination of xylh without them. Result - most xylh instructors will teach something else like long fist, 5 element hsing-i, cha quan etc. If not a different system then the fists at a minimum.

2. I think that there is at the traditional root only 12 forms. 1 for each animal + extras "basics" (chicken walk and dragon). Even that came from the original 6 animals but I don't have any records just heresay. Then as things moved and evolved they added more routines to the animals. Some added a few chains as well. In the end learning new sequences is encouraged anyway. Each student when they get to a solid level can really make up their own. It's getting to the solid level of power, speed and coordination that requires intense training.

3. Si Ba is the only one I have seen that is universal but yes others added their own. In the end the getting the animal forms right is the hard and important part. After that it is about refinement, conditioning, learning how to apply and expand on them.

For history you might want to check out:

https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-History-Chinese-Internal-Martial/dp/1490430717
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby nicklinjm on Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Am not actually a Xinyi Liuhe practitioner, so take the following with a pinch of salt:

1. Non-animal related fists: surely most of the 'ba' (seize / fist) movements are not animal related? For example, dan ba, shuang ba, yao shan ba, tiao ling, heng quan, da pi, etc.
2. Definitely very common to have at least 3-4 variations or sub-moves for animal. For example snake (she) would have she bo cao (parts the grass), she pan zhou (coil elbow), she bai wei (shakes tail), etc.
3. The number of forms and the specific forms vary a lot between different groups. Some groups (Zhoukou?) practice a lot of forms, whereas AFAIK Shanghai group from Lu Song'gao doesn't emphasise forms. The only form which would be in common between all lines would be Si Ba I think.

Also basic list of xinyi liuhe techniques here: http://www.geocities.ws/chriszimmerman777/XINYI.pdf

Hopefully more actual xinyi liuhe people will chime in to clarify....
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Storm on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:52 am

Thank you for the answers.
So compared to other styles the number of techniques in Xinyiliuhequan is rather small, is that correct? Narrow and deep so to say.
What about special exercises, conditioning, Neigong etc. is there a common set for regionally different substyles?
I have only seen one Neigong set of 13 techniques done by the line of Lu Song'gao:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aLfq-hmukW

As I understand Bao Xianting wrote a book on Qigong/Neigong with 13 exercises. I wonder if they are the same:
https://www.amazon.com/Gong-Exercises-I ... B07GN7DGP9
Last edited by Storm on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:45 pm

There was a guy on YouTube who wore a whit scull cap
He was quite solid
He seemed to have heels of variations of each animal style
The stuff he did was the best I have seen
I can't find it anymore and have searched many times
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:There was a guy on YouTube who wore a whit scull cap
He was quite solid
He seemed to have heels of variations of each animal style
The stuff he did was the best I have seen
I can't find it anymore and have searched many times

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Published on Nov 29, 2008

Walker: Zhang Yunlong:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03GTXoxX5Y
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:20 pm

Yes thank you that is him
He had heaps of clips
I love the way in one line he had many variations of the one technique
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby dspyrido on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:01 pm

nicklinjm wrote:1. Non-animal related fists: surely most of the 'ba' (seize / fist) movements are not animal related? For example, dan ba, shuang ba, yao shan ba, tiao ling, heng quan, da pi, etc.


Correct they are additions but this view depends on who you talk to. See next point.

nicklinjm wrote:2. Definitely very common to have at least 3-4 variations or sub-moves for animal. For example snake (she) would have she bo cao (parts the grass), she pan zhou (coil elbow), she bai wei (shakes tail), etc.


Not always the case. Different branches have different numbers of forms but they are additions. At the heart you will see 10 big shapes for 10 animals with only a few extras. This was the traditional way to learn. Then everyone is invited to make their own. Over the years some who made their own made them their own specific methods for their flavor of school. Do this for a few generations and you can see how this can explode but at the core there are only a handful of big shapes. That is not to say the "new" additions are good or bad. Or that they are new. Some have been documented for a few centuries. Some are practical moves. Some are intense conditioning routines. Some are straight out shadow boxing like routines (linking forms).

Some schools will teach 3-4 variations immediately and will show students many big shapes (20-30) in the 1st year of training. Over a period of time the student will collect many routines (30-50). They then might make up their own.

The more traditional ones will show a student 2 moves in the 1st year and won't progress until they are satisfied. Then they add the rest of the (12-15) shapes carefully. After a period of time when all the big shapes are learnt "new" variations are accessible & the student is now able to make up their own.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby dspyrido on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Storm wrote:So compared to other styles the number of techniques in Xinyiliuhequan is rather small, is that correct? Narrow and deep so to say.
What about special exercises, conditioning, Neigong etc. is there a common set for regionally different substyles?


XYLH does not operate like the other methods especially in the traditional way of learning it.

The big shapes are not techniques. They are named against animals but they do not really mimic the animal. Every big shape move is the special excercises, conditioning, neigong.

They are the intense conditioning routines to build the foundation (legs):

Image

The torso (note the twist while the hips still face forward):

Image

And finally the extremities (binding the hands, toes & "teeth" to be unified with the rest of the body):

Image

The big shapes also contain the standing postures. Imagine trying to hold the lower positions for 5-10 minutes a side:

Image

This is done by an older gent. Younger students are expected to have even deeper lower and more stretched out stances.

Getting this training also changes the mind which must be active in the moves to both sink and relax while being able to explode out. Yin/Yang at it's most extreme.

Put another way they are the equivalent of upright strength training, functional patterns, yogic and other methods.

BTW the forms don't define everything in the system. There is also intense pedagong, striking (bags, walls, trees), 2 person technique/reaction drills, weapons variations and then it's open season to other areas. At the more advanced level students get encouraged to wear weighted vest, wrist/leg weights and hold implements (pole, halberds, spears etc.).

Storm wrote:I have only seen one Neigong set of 13 techniques done by the line of Lu Song'gao:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... aLfq-hmukW


The so called Lu style don't exclusively represent Lu Song Gao. There are many instructors who learnt from Lu and have their own interpretation. These guys are a bit more open to adopting other training methods like moves from boxing and neigong. At the heart they have the same forms but have their own extras that they have added. Nothing wrong with that because as I mentioned XYLH has at the heart the foundation moves for almost all sub-styles and then opens up to interpretation.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Storm on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:25 pm

Thank you for the detailed explanations.

I just reread Jarek's description about Xinyiliuhequan and interestingly it contains this passage:
"Further research into history and techniques of Xinyi Liuhe Quan suggests that the style could be a compilation of at least two styles - old Moslem style of Liuhequan (Six Harmonies Boxing; style different from Shaolin's Liuhequan; the name came from the name of six-cornered caps that Moslems used to wear) and Xinyiquan (Mind and Intention Boxing) coming - probably - from Ji Longfeng. Xinyi Liuhe Quan practised nowadays consists of two main parts - fist techniques (so-called "Ten Famous Fists" - Shi Da Ming Quan - originating from old Liuhequan) and movements imitating animals (Ten Big Shapes - of Xinyiquan origin)."
This means that non animal fist techniques are part of the style.
On a second note- I was curious enough to purchase Bao Xianting's book but the Neigong he describes is different to the one in the video shown by the Shanghai practitioners.
Does anyone know which would be considered the basic/original shape for each Big shape from the variations seen nowadays? For example: "Horse rushes to manger" seems to be common albeit done differently to the 3 substyles I saw so I wonder if this was the original Horse shape.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:24 am

dspyrido wrote:that came from the original 6 animals

Which are those 6 ‘original’ animals ?
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:38 am

dspyrido wrote:
The big shapes are not techniques. They are named against animals but they do not really mimic the animal. Every big shape move is the special excercises, conditioning, neigong.

They are the intense conditioning routines to build the


Getting this training also changes the mind which must be active in the moves to both sink and relax while being able to explode out. Yin/Yang at it's most extreme.

I’ve been threading the chicken step now for a couple of months....and it’s great practice :) when mind is correctly in to it it’s as it is the only solo(xylh) exercise needed....However my teacher taught me a couple of Horse and Chicken variations a month ago(so far no siba)....it’s interesting he choose to show me those, because since the Horse and Chicken Shapes of Xingyiquan are the primary animals ive been focused on for some years now.
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:46 am

Interesting with (one of)the xylhq horse shapes how it’s as xyq’s piquan/“bear-eagle” But in a reversed kind of way...
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby Storm on Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:36 am

Trick wrote:
dspyrido wrote:that came from the original 6 animals

Which are those 6 ‘original’ animals ?

I have found this internet page which translates an article of a student of Lu Song'gao: https://boblaumartialarts.com/internal- ... nsmission/

Here is the relevant part on the original number of animals:
"This art is easy and simple as it only consists of six forms: Chicken Leg; Dragon Waist; Bear Shoulder; Eagle Talons; Tiger Covers Head; and Thunder. These six are the body methods of the art of Xin-yi Liu-he Quan. When beginning an attack, every posture should be like a tiger pouncing, and every grasp like an eagle’s talons.
.......................
However, for no apparent reason, the number of forms were increased from six to 10, thus the art contained: dragon; tiger; eagle; bear; chicken; monkey; swallow; hawk; horse; snake; with thunder being relegated to a mere addendum. Then the art was changed again in which alligator and pigeon were added, and thunder deleted. Furthermore, the name was changed to Xing-yi 形意, meaning shape and thought. What was simple became complicated. Moreover, the deletion of thunder made no sense as the art was now deficient in a method to startle........"
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Re: Xinyiliuhequan curriculum

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Think there is a lot of (unintentional) misinformation in that link that you posted Storm. It is not that there were originally 6 animals.

The animals in the link Storm referred to (Chicken Leg; Dragon Waist; Bear Shoulder; Eagle Talons; Tiger Covers Head; and Thunder) are body qualities (shenfa) which need to be manifested in all the movements. There are individual movements which correspond somewhat to these names but they are within the 10 animals.

So it is wrong to say that the animals were increased from 6 to 10 - all public historical evidence around XYLH shows at least 10 main animals (and often addition of several more 'small' animal sets).

Also it is not correct to say that thunder sound (lei sheng) was deleted in xingyiquan, it is still preserved in certain more traditional, complete lines of the art.
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