Most traditional martial arts are fake

[Trick]

That is logical, and I do know that there are real fighters in the CMA world. But, why are there so many videos of supposed grandmasters from older generations (I'm thinking for example of the old black and white footage of the white crane and taiji fight in a boxing ring way back when) who clearly just sucked and had no idea how to fight, even on a basic level? Did things degenerate that fast? In one generation?

Well as we weren't there we can only rely on limited sources. If we look at the early 20th century, the only video footage around from then is people doing basic forms as a kind of calisthenic, or of the KMT doing weapon drills in lines. Those shockingly bad videos like the White Crane one in question, I would think is just an early case of what's happening with Xu Xiao Dong now.... delusional idiots trying to get the limelight. It's worth noting that in China it's common knowledge that Xu ignores challenges from a lot of people who are more likely to be competent.

back then i would guess if crossed hands it mean fighting for real, no such thing as sparring....or perhaps if sparring it was kept as wrestling.......thats kind of how it was in olden times okinawa, sparring and competition fighting was done the okinawan version of sumo called tegumi - (note if swtch the two te and gumi(kumi) its kumite) fighting with strikes was an serious matter

[wayne hansen]

I have said this many times the fight between Hak fu chan and Wu gung I was effected by the police
At the last moment they were both told neither could win or draw because of the huge sums of money that were bet on the match
So they had to go out and pretend
If you look at the prelim between Tung and Lau fat Mun it is a much better demo of skill
I knew Hak fu chan as a 76 year old man our schools backed on to one another in Sydney's Chinatown
He still had skill at that age
Even though I never trained with him a friend of mine who was an ex SAS commando did and was not in doubt of his ability
This friend was the first person to show me his beret with the razor blades sewn in the back perky blinders style in 1973
So he thought about combat a fair bit
Please just let this film clip die a peaceful death as it shows nothing due to its circumstances
Imagine if the only film of Conner McGregor was the hissy fit in the basement

[Trick]

So they had to go out and pretend

But the WC guy got an nose bleeder. I do think the elder Taiji master tried to nail an as good as he could do haymaker, no matter what the police might have told him beforehand.

[Overlord]

The problem I see today is that people not being willing to search out and train in the old ways

Either unwilling, or they don't realize there's actually something different to be found.

The good news is that I'm seeing more and more MMA/kickboxing/boxing/BJJ schools that aren't producing fighters, either. They're taking the sport training of MMA and converting it to proper McDojo training to capitalize on everyone's desire to feel like a badass without having to be uncomfortable or work. Soon, the playing field will be level, and the market will be ready for the next big sensation. Can't wait!

I don't think people have changed at all. There's genetics & life experience that produces the 1% committed to martial arts types.

In the 80 & 90s many people signed up for CMA as they followed in the footsteps of old bruce. These where people with a fighting spirit, a desire to learn & a shit load of heart to take punishment and still keep coming. Where are they now? Well they exist in hardcore sports arenas. The 1% just shifted away from CMA to a more overt provable method of training. These where the types that would take on challenges and fight with heart - just like they used to in the 80s & 90s in CMA.

Unfortunately for the remaining 99% they just don't have the right stuff or perseverance to get knocked down & keep coming. McDojos will always exist and will always be led by the hardcore nut jobs who make up the 1% of the 1% of the 1% - you know the ones who are on the spectrum for martial arts and will sacrifice everything to get there OR they are just born with that extra thick skull or additional muscle that most humans don't have.

For the rest there's ...

There is an over exaggeration and over emphasis on toughness in MA.
That is the body is supposed to take punishment in training.
But the end goal of MA is suppose to avoid getting hit or injured.

You don’t practice to get KOed, you practice not to get KOed.
WXZ called it Wei Sheng, protect the vitality.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

@ chanyaolong: the fight I was thinking of is just the one that Wayne is excusing above. This was the gatekeeper of Wu style and trained under Yang Shao Hao. So, I don't really accept that it was at such a great remove that the legendary skills had all but disappeared.


@Wayne: That's an interesting claim, but unverifiable. What we can see is that there are a series of mistakes that don't seem to reflect your scenario. Turning the back, disconnected motions, poor timing and space management, etc...These are evidence of a lack of proper training (or at least fighting).

[wayne hansen]

Not excusing just stating the facts as I know them

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Wayne, I do appreciate you sharing what you have been told. It adds another layer. Although, if true, I would expect to see the holding back of some power, trading blows, etc...rather than what was displayed.

[dspyrido]

There is an over exaggeration and over emphasis on toughness in MA.
That is the body is supposed to take punishment in training.
But the end goal of MA is suppose to avoid getting hit or injured.

You don’t practice to get KOed, you practice not to get KOed.
WXZ called it Wei Sheng, protect the vitality.

That depends - are you training for martial arts (ie being prepared for fighting) or for low impact health moves?

Yesterday I recommended the exact opposite to someone. In 10 rounds of sparring with everyone swapping around he sat out at about the 6th round. He was not used to taking medium impact. The lesson - it's ok to sit out but keep working at it & eventually 10 rounds will be possible. The fighting benefit is it helps to avoid going to pieces when someone throws a hit & connects.

That said - yes we want to avoid getting hit but if we never train to take a hit & it happens then it's the ones who are conditioned that will keep going.

BTW - this is what Xu has been hunting. Guys who claim they have the right stuff but on impact they go to pieces. By this logic WXZ would have made a good victim for Xu if he had not learnt to take impact. Either that or what he said is being taken out of context.

A further thing is that taking moderate impact (not breakages or anything that impairs training) is good for bone density especially as aging sets in.

[dspyrido]

Maybe a little before your time, some might remember him here. Benny the Jet.

He also went though China, visiting various CMA gyms with some friends, taking it easy on the locals there from what I've read.

Benny is a legend & did the same everywhere around the world. Training & competing is his passion.



I trained a couple of workshops with him. The sessions where supposed to run for 4 hours but for the first 2 hours it was just stretching. Then an additional 4 hours of drills, light sparring & other stuff. He was just wanted to keep on giving.

The greatest lesson I got from him was I thought I did enough stretching but I don't.