Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

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Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:33 pm

Since another member has just posted a clip of Su, I figured I'd share this one. This was shot in Taiwan 6 years ago, and it contains rare footage of Su and his student engaging in friendly exchanges against a visiting WC guy.

It's always refreshing to see someone putting up some resistance against a teacher as opposed to doing what everybody else does -- taking everything like a crash-test dummy. ;)

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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:22 pm

According to Hong’s late students, Hong Yixiang was both (heavy) powerful and sneaky.
He had three stages of students, I think Su and Luo Dexiu was the second stage.

According to what I heard from the last stage of student, Hong Yixiang forearm is so thick and his palm is so heavy that simple slap can cause bruise on the hip. The best description is heavy but not fancy 大工不巧~

Hong’s Xingyi and Bagua is particularly unique and interesting, it preserved so much materials lost in China.
Last edited by Overlord on Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Formosa Neijia on Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:54 pm

Teachers like Su willing to cross hands like that are as rare as hen's teeth. He's willing and able to do it because his kungfu is in his hands, not his forms.

And now he's left Taiwan to go back to Japan.
Check out my school/gym: http://formosafitness.pixnet.net/blog
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:00 am

Overlord wrote:According to Hong’s late students, Hong Yixiang was both (heavy) powerful and sneaky.
He had three stages of students, I think Su and Luo Dexiu was the second stage.

According to what I heard from the last stage of student, Hong Yixiang forearm is so thick and his palm is so heavy that simple slap can cause bruise on the hip. The best description is heavy but not fancy 大工不巧~

Hong’s Xingyi and Bagua is particularly unique and interesting, it preserved so much materials lost in China.

Sumo wrestlers can probably also do that “last stage” of XYQ, maybe even with greater effect....here’s how to master the last stage .....https://www.expatbets.com/japan-categor ... lers-diet/
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:02 am

Overlord wrote:it preserved so much materials lost in China.

As what? (Please put it in English writing so all understand)
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:16 am

Trick wrote:
Overlord wrote:it preserved so much materials lost in China.

As what? (Please put it in English writing so all understand)


Lots.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:41 am

Ok, I’ll take that as nothing is lost on the mainland XYQ/BGZ
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:52 am

My XYQ(BGZ)teachers school in Dalian has for many years been invited to participate in competitions In Taiwan, I’ve never heard from him that Taiwan XYQ/BGZ hold anything deeper than the Main Land China does.
My teacher also often visit Japan to teach since he has students there too, he does say that Japan is very nice.
My teacher learned XYQ
/BGZin Tianjin back when he was in the Army, and continued practice with his teacher later in Dalian.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:21 am

Trick wrote:Ok, I’ll take that as nothing is lost on the mainland XYQ/BGZ


Wow, that is a bold statement.
I won’t say the same thing in Taiwan, there is a generation gap and many things had not been passed down properly.
For instance XY 24 hands etc.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:34 am

Anyway, back to Su's clip. I actually posted it because I was interested in hearing what you guys have to say about his performance against an outsider with a background in a different art that didn't tank for him.

I would say the WC guy actually did a decent job neutralizing Su's entries and preventing him from executing techniques smoothly -- to the point where Su would often have to go to his "dummy" student in order to complete the moves he wanted to demonstrate.

With Su's track record, there's no doubt he's a great fighter. However, I've always felt that his modified XY/BG/TJ method relies too much on shoufa (hand methods), hand speed, and transitions to gain entry. So when dealing with someone who is also good at the those things, like the WC guy, he is likely to run into some trouble.

Against someone with fast hands, my solution is usually to by-pass or nullify the arms by attacking the body and taking away the opponent's balance with heavy XY strikes -- and BG footwork.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:54 am

C.J.W. wrote:Anyway, back to Su's clip. I actually posted it because I was interested in hearing what you guys have to say about his performance against an outsider with a background in a different art that didn't tank for him.

I would say the WC guy actually did a decent job neutralizing Su's entries and preventing him from executing techniques smoothly -- to the point where Su would often have to go to his "dummy" student in order to complete the moves he wanted to demonstrate.

With Su's track record, there's no doubt he's a great fighter. However, I've always felt that his modified XY/BG/TJ method relies too much on shoufa (hand methods), hand speed, and transitions to gain entry. So when dealing with someone who is also good at the those things, like the WC guy, he is likely to run into some trouble.

Against someone with fast hands, my solution is usually to by-pass or nullify the arms by attacking the body and taking away the opponent's balance with heavy XY strikes -- and BG footwork.


In the early days, Master Hong did teach student certain killer move because of competition. Su is well known for certain move. These move is not something you can “play with”.

Having say that Su does have agility of hands skills but lack the heaviness that Hong had.
And yes also Hong’s footwork.

Hong had three stages of students. Had you ever encountered stage three students by any chance?
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:55 am

Overlord wrote:Having say that Su does have agility of hands skills but lack the heaviness that Hong had.
And yes also Hong’s footwork.


Have you ever met Su, or are you basing this all on Youtube videos? For that matter, did you ever meet Hong?
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:05 am

Bhassler wrote:
Overlord wrote:Having say that Su does have agility of hands skills but lack the heaviness that Hong had.
And yes also Hong’s footwork.


Have you ever met Su, or are you basing this all on Youtube videos? For that matter, did you ever meet Hong?


I didn’t meet Su. And yes I based my statement by the clip. Of course the WC guy can be a super fighter ~

I met big Hong Tiger, the brothers and other Hong’s student personally, they told me loads of things.
And there are things that I can say or not say on the table.
Hong Yixiang’s legacy and homage in martial arts is not given the credit in full. Let’s just say.

What I say about the Su clip is based on sources and very fair.
Last edited by Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:18 pm

Overlord wrote:In the early days, Master Hong did teach student certain killer move because of competition. Su is well known for certain move. These move is not something you can “play with”.

Having say that Su does have agility of hands skills but lack the heaviness that Hong had.
And yes also Hong’s footwork.

Hong had three stages of students. Had you ever encountered stage three students by any chance?


I've noticed that Su loves using post-heaven Bagua's "hiding" palm (from the Gao system) to move behind the opponent and then lift the guy up before dropping him on the ground. Perhaps this is one of his killer moves?

Hmm...but if those moves he learned from Hong were designed to be used in leitai competitions, they can't be too deadly or damaging to the opponent, right? If so, he would have been disqualified.

Nope. But I've personally met Luo Dexiu and a Yizong guy who learned from another one of Zhang Zhunfeng's senior students as opposed to the Hong brothers. (The Yizong guy wasn't a fan of the Hongs, and complained to me about how they'd changed Zhang's teachings.)
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:33 pm

Probably. The one I heard is not a throw. But more of a kick. And few moves on head and neck.
Hong family had welcomed many martial artists who traveled from China and in destitute.
They are so kind even paying for their traveling expenses.
Out of gratitude they pay with moves from their sleeve or martial art manuals.
Zhang Junfeng was one of these travelers.

Hong Yixiang had many teachers:
Started Judo and Kendo at age of 5
Hong’s Southern Shaolin Monkey and WC fist 2 yrs
Wang Wanlang Shaolin Wuzu 1 yr
Gao Hechun Northern Shaolin Luohan, Qinna, Shaolin 3 yrs
Chen Baoyuan Crane 3 yrs
Lin Dunjiao Taizu Crane 4 yrs
Zhang Junfeng Xingyi Bagua 11 yrs
Chen Panling Xingyi Bagua Taiji 4 yrs
Jin An Shaolin and Taiji
Older Peng from Qing gang Xiaojiutian
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Having learnt so many martial arts, refinement is inevitable. I know my Fanzi will be different from my senior because of my other martial arts.

CJW since you live in Taiwan, regarding to Luo Dexiu and Su or Zhang Junfeng I think it’s better to talk to Hong’s family.
I follow Tiger instructions not to bad mouth others even I already know the full story.
Last edited by Overlord on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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