Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:17 pm

Hongs son is putting up plenty of good stuff on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/10000428901514 ... 891637164/

Plenty of his stuff on this page
https://www.facebook.com/80584119950783 ... 732654066/
Last edited by wayne hansen on Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby dspyrido on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:31 pm

Overlord wrote:According to Hong’s late students, Hong Yixiang was both (heavy) powerful and sneaky.
He had three stages of students, I think Su and Luo Dexiu was the second stage.


What was their description of the 3 stages?
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:50 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I would say the WC guy actually did a decent job neutralizing Su's entries and preventing him from executing techniques smoothly -- to the point where Su would often have to go to his "dummy" student in order to complete the moves he wanted to demonstrate.

With Su's track record, there's no doubt he's a great fighter. However, I've always felt that his modified XY/BG/TJ method relies too much on shoufa (hand methods), hand speed, and transitions to gain entry. So when dealing with someone who is also good at the those things, like the WC guy, he is likely to run into some trouble.

Against someone with fast hands, my solution is usually to by-pass or nullify the arms by attacking the body and taking away the opponent's balance with heavy XY strikes -- and BG footwork.


Is that a joke? Su was here for years before he left to go back to Japan. You could have tried your theories any time. I for one would have loved to see video of that.

WC does all of its techniques in a box in front of the chest. So when Su sets up some of those types of attacks, the WC guy can neutralize some of them but as soon as Su angles, the WC guy has no answer. And in somce cases, Su WANTS those neutralizations because they are entries. He's obviously using the student to elaborate his ideas for demonstration purposes. Did we see the same clip?

As for him not being as heavy as Hong, don't they obviously have different body types? At a certain point, you have to stop imitating and find what works for you,which Su has obviously done in spades.

Regarding the idea that Hong's material preserves things the mainland lost, I've always found all of the groups derived from Hong's teachings are showing apps that I never see from the mainland. The slapping,for example, is something they do very well and I don't see that in mainland apps. I always attributed that to Hong's southern shaolin, especially his white crane. In any case, Hong's material as found in the various groups seems very special to me and I wouldn't trade it for anything I've ever seen from the mainland.

Overlord wrote:I met big Hong Tiger, the brothers and other Hong’s student personally, they told me loads of things.
And there are things that I can say or not say on the table.
Hong Yixiang’s legacy and homage in martial arts is not given the credit in full. Let’s just say.


I'm glad to see Hong's sons being more open with their stuff so I'll just come out and ask: do they plan to translate Hong's recent Chinese biography into English? Cause I assume Chris Bates could knock that out no problem. He's been with them for years and is as sharp as a tack.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:17 pm

;D
Last edited by Overlord on Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:10 pm

Overlord,
Sorry to see you deleted your response. I understand that there is an amount of politics involved between all these teachers that is hard to appreciate sometimes.

We very well could have met at some point.

I look forward to the translation if it ever becomes available.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:43 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:Is that a joke? Su was here for years before he left to go back to Japan. You could have tried your theories any time. I for one would have loved to see video of that.

WC does all of its techniques in a box in front of the chest. So when Su sets up some of those types of attacks, the WC guy can neutralize some of them but as soon as Su angles, the WC guy has no answer. And in somce cases, Su WANTS those neutralizations because they are entries. He's obviously using the student to elaborate his ideas for demonstration purposes. Did we see the same clip?

As for him not being as heavy as Hong, don't they obviously have different body types? At a certain point, you have to stop imitating and find what works for you,which Su has obviously done in spades.

Regarding the idea that Hong's material preserves things the mainland lost, I've always found all of the groups derived from Hong's teachings are showing apps that I never see from the mainland. The slapping,for example, is something they do very well and I don't see that in mainland apps. I always attributed that to Hong's southern shaolin, especially his white crane. In any case, Hong's material as found in the various groups seems very special to me and I wouldn't trade it for anything I've ever seen from the mainland.


Nope. Not a joke.

Did you notice the numerous times when the WC guy managed to neutralize Su's attacks because Su was playing paddie-cake and "chasing hands" with him? Luo Dexiu comes from the same lineage as Su, but I prefer Luo's fighting style because he is better at controlling balance at first contact as opposed to relying on hand speed and multiple transitions to overwhelm the opponent like Su does.




If you've been around enough old-time Chinese/Taiwanese CMA teachers, you'd know how they are good at using their students to "save face" during demonstrations that involve outsiders or potential challengers, and disguise their misses as "teaching moements." Part of what Su did in the video is exactly that.

You are right about slapping though. In my lineage of Bagua/Xingyi, we do not use quick, multiple slaps to enter or set up techniques either. We prefer to enter, hit/stick, and control the opponent using structure. My guess is it's something the Hong brothers got from other external northern/southern Shaolin arts they cross-trained in.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:34 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:

Regarding the idea that Hong's material preserves things the mainland lost, I've always found all of the groups derived from Hong's teachings are showing apps that I never see from the mainland. The slapping,for example, is something they do very well and I don't see that in mainland apps. I always attributed that to Hong's southern shaolin, especially his white crane. In any case, Hong's material as found in the various groups seems very special to me and I wouldn't trade it for anything I've ever seen from the mainland.
.

Yes, you say it yourself here. Hong’s “XYQ” slapping is from some of the many other styles of pugilism he was involved in.

As for myself, if I focus heavily on my Taijiquan practice openhands seem to come out more naturally. But also as now as I have focused much on my XYQ Chicken form, openhandeness is flashing.....Maybe that’s what’s Hong also focused on(chicken form)? Or maybe some of the other open hand XYQ shapes...I can agree that fist techniques may be favored by many average XYQ practitioners who has fallen for the GYS bengquan story. Although some stylist have a focus on fists because extensive practice of the horse shape...(remember here the fist is everything from elbow to knuckles)
As for my XYQ teacher here is China, he’s balanced fist/palms (BGZ, TJQ and XYQ with western boxing)
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:38 am

dspyrido wrote:
Overlord wrote:According to Hong’s late students, Hong Yixiang was both (heavy) powerful and sneaky.
He had three stages of students, I think Su and Luo Dexiu was the second stage.


What was their description of the 3 stages?

From that quote I think two of the stages are kind of explained 8-)
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:10 am

Trick wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:

Regarding the idea that Hong's material preserves things the mainland lost, I've always found all of the groups derived from Hong's teachings are showing apps that I never see from the mainland. The slapping,for example, is something they do very well and I don't see that in mainland apps. I always attributed that to Hong's southern shaolin, especially his white crane. In any case, Hong's material as found in the various groups seems very special to me and I wouldn't trade it for anything I've ever seen from the mainland.
.

Yes, you say it yourself here. Hong’s “XYQ” slapping is from some of the many other styles of pugilism he was involved in.

As for myself, if I focus heavily on my Taijiquan practice openhands seem to come out more naturally. But also as now as I have focused much on my XYQ Chicken form, openhandeness is flashing.....Maybe that’s what’s Hong also focused on(chicken form)? Or maybe some of the other open hand XYQ shapes...I can agree that fist techniques may be favored by many average XYQ practitioners who has fallen for the GYS bengquan story. Although some stylist have a focus on fists because extensive practice of the horse shape...(remember here the fist is everything from elbow to knuckles)
As for my XYQ teacher here is China, he’s balanced fist/palms (BGZ, TJQ and XYQ with western boxing)


My friend you have no idea. Please don’t jump into any conclusion about what you think you know. I too.

From what I heard by different people...
During the peak of Tangshou, sparring is breakfast, lunch and dinner as delicacies.
Tiger did 1000 push up per day as a daily routine at age of 40s.
This put me into shame.

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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby Overlord on Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:14 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:Overlord,
Sorry to see you deleted your response. I understand that there is an amount of politics involved between all these teachers that is hard to appreciate sometimes.

We very well could have met at some point.

I look forward to the translation if it ever becomes available.


Sorry I try to dampen down the conversation in case I say something I shouldn’t. ;D
It’s not politics.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby GrahamB on Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:32 am

I’m not sure how much can be assumed from a game of pat a cake? - I would be more interested in what happens when the gloves are on :)
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:14 pm

Plenty of sparing with gloves on in tang shou Tao
Even more full contact sparing with no gloves
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby dspyrido on Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:48 pm

Trick wrote:
dspyrido wrote:
Overlord wrote:According to Hong’s late students, Hong Yixiang was both (heavy) powerful and sneaky.
He had three stages of students, I think Su and Luo Dexiu was the second stage.


What was their description of the 3 stages?

From that quote I think two of the stages are kind of explained 8-)


Actually I got to briefly see Overlords unfortunately deleted response and it said something different and made a lot more sense regarding when they started vs. anything to do with ability.

Overlord thanks for the response. I didn't get to say it when I saw the response. What you posted had 2 parts. Not sure which one made you retract it but in the end you have your reasons.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby dspyrido on Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:05 pm

I don't train under the Hong lineage but after seeing briefly Su, Lu and Hong junior's clips here I think all 3 show a different flavour but all 3 look good in their own way. Says a lot for Hong senior.

Sure when picking one vs. the other there are moves that some people will like and not like but in the end this is what happens with xy. People will favour one animal vs another, maybe train harder or lesser, have different body types or they mix in their own martial experience.
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Re: Another interesting Su Dongchen Clip

Postby AJG on Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:28 pm

I don't think any good student is going to become a clone of their teacher. To dsyrido's point they all look good in their own way. Look for the positives rather than looking for the negatives.

From where I see things Su looks like he moves more differently that all the others. Obviously this must have come from his own experience.

I do know one guy who trained with Hong Senior when he was in Australia in the early 80's. The one thing he said was Hong was really smooth and never exerted much effort when he moved but was still strong and hit hard. It all came down to practice and his own experience over time. Hong Junior looks interesting but still different.

I'm interested in the way they do the beginning of Pi Chuan, particularly how they wind back in the opposite direction before the start of the move. If anyone knows why they train it this way I would be most interested.
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