The Bizarre World of Fake Martial Arts

[middleway]

A big section at the end of this about Xu and his situation. Truly disgusting the way he is being treated, I had no idea how bad it was/is for him.

[Bao]

China's social credit score is more or less just a credit score. There are things that can lower your score, as if you get arrested in another country, but it's mostly about financial situation. Xu Xiaodong was ordered to pay fines for mocking the Chen family and Taijiquan as Chen Xiaowang felt insulted. As long as Xu doesn't pay the fines, he will have a low credit score. This system of not being able to move around freely was created to stop financial criminals and businessmen to move around with money, making them sure to pay their debts.

If people are angry at him, well, he can only blame his own stupidity. In China, if you want to learn to fight, you practice Sanda or Taekwondo. Traditional Kung Fu is mostly regarded as an old tradition practiced mostly by old people, similar to folk dances in many countries. In China, Kung Fu is less about real fighting, and more about physical and mental training, and a lot about history, culture, philosophy. It's a part of the national heritage. If you speak bad about it, you speak bad about China's culture and history. If you are Chinese you should know how nationalistic and sensitive Chinese people can be. So I have a hard time to feel very sorry for him. He should know better.

....

China's Social credit score system is not worse than many other countries credit score, including the US.

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/11/2 ... ideo-games

The effects of the US credit system aren’t so far from that of China’s controversial system

In the United States, the credit bureaus don’t downgrade consumers for spending on things they deem silly or for being neglectful pet owners. But credit rankings in the US are set up in such a way that people with more resources get more financial breaks while people with fewer resources are routinely punished — often in ways that make little sense.

A person may end up with bad credit because he lost his job, but the fact that his credit suffered while unemployed could effectively prevent him from landing another job. According to the US Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, it is not illegal for employers to deny an applicant a job offer based on information in his credit report. This makes it that much harder for people with bad credit to get the gainful employment needed to repair their scores.

People with poor credit may also be turned down for housing, even if the reason for the would-be tenant’s troublesome credit history has nothing to do with her rental history. Someone who consistently paid rent on time but racked up credit card debt due to medical expenses could find her housing application denied or be asked to pay a higher deposit as punishment.

By some estimates, one in five Americans has unpaid medical debt, and more than half of blacks and Latinos have medical debt on their credit cards. This not only limits rental opportunities but opportunities to buy a home, as good credit is generally a requirement for a housing loan. And lenders, of course, have historically created barriers for people of color pursuing homeownership.

Transportation and credit aren’t just linked in China but in the US too. Americans with bad credit pay more for car insurance than their counterparts with good credit. Some banks have systematically given people of color subprime auto loans, even if their credit history didn’t justify that they pay more interest.

“Credit reports and scores are mirrors of our manifestly two-tiered financial system, and more broadly our system of racial wealth inequality and unequal opportunity,” Sarah Ludwig, founder and co-director of the New Economy Project wrote in a 2015 Guardian essay. “In our culture, indebtedness — and certainly failure to pay one’s debts — is deeply entwined with concepts of morality. The insidious notion that our credit history speaks to our reliability as human beings is largely taken for granted.”

The 2019 debut of the UltraFICO score, an alternative to the traditional FICO credit score, is being touted as a potential remedy for the inequities in the US credit system. Rather than focus on length of credit history, for example, it takes into consideration whether one saves regularly, maintains a $400 bank balance, avoids overdrafts, and pays bills on time.

But this alternative isn’t likely to benefit the low-income people who have to juggle bills to survive, perhaps paying the heating bill late one month and the car insurance late the next. For truly cash-poor families, regularly saving money or avoiding overdraft fees is a Herculean task. In fact, many poor people forgo bank accounts altogether because banking fees take such a toll on their finances. UltraFico might help people of average means with short credit histories, but it’s questionable if the score will change circumstances for the underprivileged.

Given how interlinked morality, debt, and credit are in the United States, some of the concerns about China’s new social credit score comes across as disingenuous. Although the system certainly raises alarms — Human Rights Watch is concerned about it, after all — the idea that the US credit system operates much more equitably is shortsighted.

[Trick]

yes no sorry for the Xu guy. good for him his mission comes around to bite his ass.....social credit system, just think a little, is being implemented all over the world, in one way or another. 50 years from now you will all be watched and cared for

[Trick]

Xu started his own 'MA's social credit sustem' where his main mission was to discredit TJQ and up credit himself, what a backlash

[middleway]

Either way, I feel sorry for the guy, i think he did something valuable. I don't think he deserves to pay anyone anything, and don't think he deserves the hate. Your MMV.

[windwalker]

What he has done was actually very common in my experience in China.
Historically it is also the case.

The difference he did it in a very public way, challenging the traditions
of long time established CMA gyms and teachers. Probably not a good idea for
a citizen of China living in China.

The motivation for why he’s doing it maybe suspect he does have his own gym.

People I’ve known have informal fight clubs in Beijing.
Most of them from traditional arts well aware of sanda and MMA type fighters.
They seek to find their own truth in a private way.

Long time China hands should understand the traditions,
what’s real and not real in China and why this is so.

In the end aside from his personal misfortunes
I feel he will be regarded as a positive influence in the development of CMA

[Bhassler]

Xu didn't start any of this-- he was challenged by a famous "taiji master" and when he answered the challenge it all blew up. Much like most opinions on the internet, the vast majority of what people are saying about the situation is based on personal bias and bad assumptions.

[Bao]

Xu didn't start any of this-- he was challenged by a famous "taiji master" and when he answered the challenge it all blew up.

The self-proclaimed master didn’t start Xu’s mouth to move.

[dspyrido]

I think Xu is lucky he has not been locked away or permanently taken out. Taking on incapable martial artists who hardly know how to compete is one thing. Taking on the Chinese government is another. If he keeps it up will credit score be Xu's biggest problem? I hope it doesn't get worse for him.

[chenyaolong]

If you understand Chinese and watch a few minutes of his livestreams on Youtube... it's hard to feel much empathy towards him. He's just a narcissist.

Bao hit the nail on the head.

[middleway]

What he has done was actually very common in my experience in China.
Historically it is also the case.

The difference he did it in a very public way, challenging the traditions
of long time established CMA gyms and teachers.

The amusing part for me is that, SO many famous masters are hailed for taking on all comers in 'challenge matches'. Must only be OK if you do traditional arts.

If you understand Chinese and watch a few minutes of his livestreams on Youtube... it's hard to feel much empathy towards him. He's just a narcissist.

Well I don't understand Chinese. All i can go on is the history of his exploits. I am not suggesting that Xu is some saint or not at fault. But the idea that he should or could be fined by the Chen's or should suffer social consequences for accepting challenge matches (or even instigating them!) is truly ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he is a narcissist or not IMO.

The self-proclaimed master didn’t start Xu’s mouth to move

The timeline suggests the 'Master' was the first to move their mouth. After that ALOT of other 'masters' moved theirs. Xu simply answered their calls by shutting their mouths.

Taking on the Chinese government is another. If he keeps it up will credit score be Xu's biggest problem? I hope it doesn't get worse for him.

Absolutely.

In the end aside from his personal misfortunes
I feel he will be regarded as a positive influence in the development of CMA

Agreed.

[Bao]

But the idea that he should or could be fined by the Chen's or should suffer social consequences for accepting challenge matches (or even instigating them!) is truly ridiculous. It doesn't matter if he is a narcissist or not IMO.

I think it’s very hard to comprehend if you are not Chinese or at least have been living in China for a long time. It all sounds a bit silly, and here most people could agree about that it’s unnecessary for Chen Xiaowang to be that sensitive. But it’s more complicated than it might seem and the problems run deeper than on a personal level of disagreement. First, Xu wasn’t fined because of a challenge match. I don’t know exactly what Xu later have said, it could have been several occasions in live streams or similar. But as what I have understood it was directed directly toward traditional Taijiquan and Chen Style. If Chen Xiaowang felt that they were under verbal attack, I can’t really see how he could leave it alone. Xu was asked to apologize, but, as I have understood though I know very little about what exactly occurred, somewhere here as Xu didn’t want to accept to take things back, things went wrong.

Now, many knows that there’s a very strong relationship between the Chen village and the local government, and that it has been so ever since Chen Village was officially announced to be the birthplace of Tai Chi Chuan. The issue at hand is very much about an agenda of the Chinese government. Nationalism has been strongly encouraged in the last five years or so, and it seems to just get worse. The government wants Chinese to care more about Chinese traditions and less for Western. The last few years, they have even publicly told the people that it’s better to not celebrate Christmas and focus only on the Chinese New Year. So stores and whole chains have stopped selling Christmas decorations. I don’t people here in the West can understand, and they have no reason to understand, how strong nationalism has become in China. But Xu lives in this country and should understand both written and unwritten rules for what could and should not be said. So, because he didn’t know better, or acted against common reason and judgment, he was turned into an outcast, a living example of what can happen if you are anti-nationalistic and acts against China’s nationalistic interests. Ridiculous, I don’t know. But it’s all sad and unnecessary, but also inevitable and it could have been worse.

[phil b]

Xu was doxed, his family received death threats, and he was vilified on social media for pointing out that there are too many charlatans ruining the reputation of kung fu. He has stated several times he is not attacking Chinese culture.

I find it amazing that people on this board think that what he has endured is fair. As Middleway points out, all he has done is answer his critics. Chinese martial arts will continue to suffer, and eventually be consigned to history if these BS experts are given the freedom to make such spurious claims without fear of being held to account. If you say you can fight, that your art allows you to do amazing things, then prove it or stfu. I've seen people on this board argue that Thai boxers would benefit from learning internal to improve their clinch. It's that kind of dumbassery that makes CMA a laughing stock.

True story...

I heard a story about a tai chi master that claimed to have kicked a man's leg clean off. I've met this master and I watched a bunch of foreigners simply swallow this as gospel. FFS people! One of his students asked me why I didn't train with him...

[phil b]

I think it’s very hard to comprehend if you are not Chinese or at least have been living in China for a long time.

Utter bollocks, Bao. It's about not breaking the rice bowl, no more difficult than that.

[Trick]

Xu didn't start any of this-- he was challenged by a famous "taiji master" and when he answered the challenge it all blew up. Much like most opinions on the internet, the vast majority of what people are saying about the situation is based on personal bias and bad assumptions.

do you have a quote of that challenge ?