rocking the boat on LHBF

[kenneth fish]

Just to clarify: I did not mean to imply that the video of Wu Yinghua was filmed in Duliu, or that LHBF has anything to do with Du Liu Tong Bei - it just so happened that I stumbled on this bit of information while I was visiting with a Du Liu Tong Bei teacher in Du Liu.

Also, Jarek: I did not mean any slight on Wu Maogui - it is simply that what he shows is different from what I saw and experienced as Du Liu Tong Bei.

In an old copy of Wu Lin there is a reprint of a newspaper article by Wu Yihui where he lays out whom he studied what with - as I said I will translate it an post it when I return.

[Wanderingdragon]

That will be cool, even better if you post the original text as well.

[drifting]

I am truly at a loss on the subject of lineage. Genetically it means having the same bloodlines and genetic codes, so in martial arts, or LHBF, especially, that there are no known non Wu transmissions.

Lineage is trivial, its just interesting to know our past. But are indeed several non-Wu lineages though that Ive come across, they cant be proven though... nor disproven for that matter.

Wouldn't that mean that all LHBF should be essentially the same with nothing added or subtracted.

No body dedicates their life to something without putting part of themselves within it. Some things are doubted, some are misunderstood, some are simplified, some are expanded. We dont all get the same foundations either, so all in all it is very unlikely for it to all be the same with nothing added or subtracted. However, if you consider Liuhebafa in the same terms as you would a mathematical equation then in the cases where each step has been observed and correct, and all the variables are the same, then we should arrive at the same conclusion. The variables though are time, ability, physiology, background, attitude, ego...

I am curious about this because in many of the "Public Forms" I see performed today, I notice many subtlties that are missing, granted much can be given to interpretation, but none should be lost in transmission.

There is always something lost in transmittion! You spent time and effort with your teacher, but did you get a full transmittion, and was there any static in that transmittion?

We are not limited by our teachers though. Liuhebafa is clear and defined and out there to be discovered, but we need alot of help along the way!

[Wanderingdragon]

1 is always 1 the world over no matter if has evolved to algebra or calculus or physics, you never get there without the very basic understanding that 1 is never anything else. Every word is created from an alphabet it is either not a word or a different word if the letters are not the same. When one is taught abc's and 123s nothing is lost I the transmission, it only becomes your own in use not in lesson.

[Overlord]

I was in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, Hebei, for a bit about a week ago. The town, called 独流 duliu, is about an hour and change from Tianjin. Its very well known for tough martial artists, and a very complete kind of Tongbei, called Duliu Taizu Tongbeiquan 独流太祖通背拳。 (The Taizu is not the same as the Songtaizu - it is a local term referring to this kind of Tongbei) I was introduced to one of the top people in the area, and visited him and his martial arts family. The teacher is my age, and there were a couple of his elder classmates too - they also demonstrated a bit, and were spry and powerful in their 70's. Things took a turn for the unexpected late in the day - we were watching some films that they had made of the system, and some footage of other systems was on the disc as well - luhong Bashi, Bafa Quan, and Liuhe Quan, all native to the general area. I was very interested in what I saw - the BaFa Quan and the LiuHe Quan (not the Shaolin Temple Liuhe) had several very long forms - and they bore a very strong resemblance to major sections of LHBF - with very similar mechanics, but with much more visible force and exertion, like old style Lohan or Weito Shaolin. (There was also some Erlang Quan, but thats another story). So I asked about the Bafa Quan and the Liuhe Quan - and this was what I was told (which, btw, is consistent with both Wu Yihui's writings and the historical research done on LHBF by the local government) -"These are systems that have been practiced in this area for a long time - probably going back to late Ming or early Qing dynasty. They are well known here and throughout Hebei." "That teacher (indicating a gent on the CD) is the grandson of one of Wu Yihui's teachers." "Yes, we know about Wu Yihui and LHBF. LHBF was developed by Wu Yihui and his teachers. It was developed from these two systems, and other things that Wu Yihui learned (Chinese: 六合八法 这个拳 是 由 六合拳和八法拳 这两个拳法变化出来的）
We don't know where the whole Daoist myth came from - its a myth. This was developed here (meaning rural Hebei), and Wu Yihui was the person who developed and spread it."

Which, as far as I am concerned, makes a hell of a lot more sense than the general LHBF mythology we are all familiar with - and it explains why the system seems to have changed over time while Wu Yihui was still alive and teaching - he was stll working on it and changing it throughout his life.

It’s about nine years ago, Kenneth was making a big claim that Wu Yihui created Liuhebafa with evidence, yet today he had not shown a shred of evidence to support this claim. I am still waiting for any trace of evidence such as a small clip to entice me. We want to rocked by Kenneth, truely.

[suckinlhbf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4g31YToQQY

Is this the Bafa Quan Ken referred to?

[Peacedog]

FWIW, Ken has an operating medical service in southern Maryland. If someone really wanted an answer, they could probably just call the guy.

[Trick]

although ive got that tip from Jarek before on this forum, im happy this thread came back in focus(i was not around here back in 2011) jarek's post in this thread that mention Huainan as an important place/hub for LHBF here on mainland china spark my interest and as soon this virus things gone i will move around in the city to find out more, perhaps even take up study LHBF, atleast see if it fit well with my YQ/XYQ/TBQ and taijiquan ive been doing for long years now....maybe even learn som LHBF history to tell here, which seem a happy topic to discuss

[Bao]

Chinese internal practices are a never-ending font of mystical thingies.

The problem as I see it, speaking about history that is, is that the official versions of history are all extremely simplified. We always hear versions that are condensed to very few people, one originator and his/her most prominent students. There is very little mention of other teachers, their sparring partners, cross-training etc. and generations of different teachers and students are often completely taken out from the equation. So the history we usually hear is like taking out one single thread out of a whole web of threads claiming that the single thread is the whole web.

And btw, I didn’t find Kenneth trying to claim anything in this thread. I also believe that he tried to write from the perspective of his own personal experience and how things make sense for him through his experiences. But some things are very hard to explain with words only.

[Overlord]

Aside from Wu Yihui, AFAIK there are other branches of Liuhebafa lineages in his time,
1, 左相臣（or 左雙臣）
2、徐文炳
3、黃壽亭（who later learnt from 張長信）
So it’s impossible for Wu Yihui to create Liuhebafa from Liuhe and Bafa fist, it was there generations before Wu.

When Ken says to rock boat on Liuhebafa, if it’s not a claim what is a claim?

[Bao]

When Ken says to rock boat on Liuhebafa, if it’s not a claim what is a claim?

He wrote: "- and this was what I was told (which, btw, is consistent with both Wu Yihui's writings and the historical research done on LHBF by the local government) "

Read a few times and tell me - where is the claim? What did I miss and exactly where does Ken actually claim anything?

Well, sure, he did in fact claim that he heard someone saying something, that he was told something. But I can't really find that he made any claim on anything regarding the history of LHBF.

BTW, as I have understood, LHBF was developed from an old Shaolin form / old Shaolin tradition which mixed together with local styles. And as it probably developed gradually, there might be no person to claim as the real founder.

[wayne hansen]

Sometimes just turning up states your point of view

[C.J.W.]

Overlord,

What do Liuhebafa practitioners -- the ones with decades of experience and in-depth knowledge -- think regarding the origin of the art?

With Gao Bagua, although the founder Gao Yisheng claimed to have learned the post-heaven 64 palms from a mysterious Daoist named Song Yiren 宋異人(送藝人), it is pretty obvious that it was Gao himself who created them by mixing and matching sanshou techniques from Xingyi, Dahongchuan, and Cheng style Bagua. (This view was corroborated by Kang Gewu, the well-known Bagua historian.)

[Trick]

Given your background, Trick, it seems like well-taught LHBF would contain much of interest for your study and training. Wu Yihui was by many accounts a highly skilled martial artist, a master synthesizer of principles and shenfa, and an excellent teacher of his evolving art.

If you have not seen it yet, http://www.liuhebafachuan.com is a very informative website put together by Paul Roberts, whose primary LHBF experience is in the Chen Yiren line of teaching out of Hong Kong.

thanks for the link, will check it out

[suckinlhbf]

What do Liuhebafa practitioners -- the ones with decades of experience and in-depth knowledge -- think regarding the origin of the art?

Just my thought and I am surely not a qualified person to talk (having been doing LHBF from Chan Yik Yan and Wan Tin Hung lines for more than three decades, and can only acquire very superficial knowledge on the art both on the theories and body expression), and cannot speak for other LHBF practitioners.

We all know there are lot of rumours and controversies on the origin of LHBF (so as other styles), and even more on its methodology. Does it have its own approach or a combination of three major internal arts? Chinese martial arts always attach itself to their founder or somebody from the past. Wu YiHui may be the first person to teach LHBF to the public, and he has claimed the style is from Chen Tuan in Song Dynasty. There were other teachers at his time as Overload had mentioned but their names didn’t come up as often. We want more solid evidences on it. And then we want more on the generations before them if possible upto Chen Tuan. And even go further than Chen Tuan. The Bashi paper has names from generation to generation. They are just names without backgrounds and histories.

Of course, it is beneficial to have as much information as possible on the ancestor. It helps to anticipate the evolvement of the art. I guess we know we are being influenced by many things when we walk along the path. Let’s say we have very solid evidences that LHBF is originated from Chen Tuan in Song Dynasty, it would hardly be the same now after a thousand years evolvement. I put myself in the art itself more than its history. The history is to help understanding the art at its source. In Chinese tradition, we respect the ancestor and the things they have passed on so we have the lineage.