Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:51 am

Ryan St George (who I don't think is a member here) has been doing a fine series of podcasts on CMA / MMA called Talking Fists. In the latest episode he talks to Jon Dyer (who I think posts as Dai Zhiqiang here) about his experiences training Xinyi Liuhe and Dai style xinyi in Shanxi and New Zealand, well worth a listen:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-fists-episode-9-jon-dyer-xinyiliuhequan-dai/id1475424111?i=1000471375393

Great stuff, especially where he talks about the relative softness / hardness of XYLH versus Dai style, also how to develop kuai jin (quick power). Also he is very straightforward about how MA politics and $$ get in the way of learning the 'real stuff'.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:36 am

Jon Dyer used to post here back in the day (or one of the days - there have been many eras of The Fist).

It’s a pretty no holds barred discussion.

Some points I picked up:

He’s spent years doing hours of hard training in obscure Xin Yi styles that require hours of gruelling training a day, and he’s never actually met anyone who could really throw down with it. (This is a major flaw with Chinese styles, I think - the huge amount of solo training required).

He’s met a lot of unscrupulous Chinese teacher more interested in money than anything else. This seems very common.

Also he mentions that CMA seems to attract weirdos. It’s full of weirdos. Again, no arguments there :)

Eventually he quits it all for BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA He finds that it attracts more genuine people. Of course, the inherant irony here is that he's one of the CMA people himself. My experience is that there's a lot of crossover between BJJ and CMA. You also get plenty of weirdos in BJJ too, but there's somethign about the reality-based training that changes them quickly, or they quit quickly. (Just my opinion)

My thoughts were that he’s been really unlucky in who he’s met, in one sense, but lucky to have trained these really rare styles in detail and in China. Although, he doesn't sound like the victim of circumstance - he makes his own fate. Personally I can't imagine spending hours a day training something when I had no real sense that it 'worked' as a combat method. You live and you learn I guess.

It makes me wonder how much you should be training a day. An answer that would change at different ages and points in your life. I guess for me the answer is ‘as much as you want to’. I’ve always thought that it’s more about striking a balance and consistency of how regular your training is rather than how long in each session.

Anyway, it's a very interesting podcast.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Fatal Rose on Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:13 pm

Hello, I’m Ryan St. George

Thanks for sharing my podcast Jon, I really appreciate it. I plan on uploading at least two episodes a month. Been extremely busy with the move and new job recently though. I’m a correctional officer and the hours were a bit crazy the past three months. Soon things will settle down and I’ll have more time to interview and upload hopefully.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Pennykid on Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:46 pm

If Jon had stuck with Stephen Yan and focussed on the shuaijiao and qinna in the arts that Dr. Yan taught, I think he would have had lots of practical fighting skills. Grappling is grappling whether it comes from Asia or elsewhere.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:36 pm

Pennykid wrote:If Jon had stuck with Stephen Yan and focussed on the shuaijiao and qinna in the arts that Dr. Yan taught, I think he would have had lots of practical fighting skills. Grappling is grappling whether it comes from Asia or elsewhere.


Stephen Yan does not teach, Shuai Chiao and most probably isn't qualified to do so and I found the Chin Na, that he taught was nowhere as good as the joint locking taught in BJJ, plus there is absolutely no free application of it, you just learn the moves and practice on a compliant partner.

Grappling is not just grappling, sure there are grips involved and a method of control, but certain arts reign supreme, when it comes to their effectiveness. How you practice is equally important to what you practice.

Look at arts, which have flourished under a modern sporting environment (Judo, BJJ, Sambo, freestyle wrestling, shuai chiao etc) the practitioners are as a general rule more athletic, train harder and more frequently and regularly spar and compete.

I am not putting down, chin na etc, the principles of the movements are sound, but they do not train in the most efficient manner, it would be better to get a solid base in something like, Judo and then learn "small circle chin na" etc.

As for fighting skills, I learnt them outside of what he taught me. He mostly taught to be honest a collection of forms, some "yong fa" , "tui shou" and very little supplemental work "strength and conditioning", which I have always put in the time myself to do.

To make things clear I do not want come here to bash, SY, that chapter of my life is over and respectfully I have moved on, I am 43 year old man now and I don't want to waste any more precious time, squabbling over rubbish.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Finny on Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:30 am

Good to see you again J_B!

I'll listen to the podcast later, but maybe a spoiler first - do you still practice Dai at all?
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:53 am

Finny wrote:Good to see you again J_B!

I'll listen to the podcast later, but maybe a spoiler first - do you still practice Dai at all?


No Dai I mostly concentrate on Muay Thai now and BJJ, I'll still practice a few select movements for health reasons and if I feel like it.

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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:27 am

GrahamB wrote:Jon Dyer used to post here back in the day (or one of the days - there have been many eras of The Fist).

It’s a pretty no holds barred discussion.

Some points I picked up:

He’s spent years doing hours of hard training in obscure Xin Yi styles that require hours of gruelling training a day, and he’s never actually met anyone who could really throw down with it. (This is a major flaw with Chinese styles, I think - the huge amount of solo training required).

He’s met a lot of unscrupulous Chinese teacher more interested in money than anything else. This seems very common.

Also he mentions that CMA seems to attract weirdos. It’s full of weirdos. Again, no arguments there :)

Eventually he quits it all for BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA He finds that it attracts more genuine people. Of course, the inherant irony here is that he's one of the CMA people himself. My experience is that there's a lot of crossover between BJJ and CMA. You also get plenty of weirdos in BJJ too, but there's somethign about the reality-based training that changes them quickly, or they quit quickly. (Just my opinion)

My thoughts were that he’s been really unlucky in who he’s met, in one sense, but lucky to have trained these really rare styles in detail and in China. Although, he doesn't sound like the victim of circumstance - he makes his own fate. Personally I can't imagine spending hours a day training something when I had no real sense that it 'worked' as a combat method. You live and you learn I guess.

It makes me wonder how much you should be training a day. An answer that would change at different ages and points in your life. I guess for me the answer is ‘as much as you want to’. I’ve always thought that it’s more about striking a balance and consistency of how regular your training is rather than how long in each session.

Anyway, it's a very interesting podcast.


Thanks for taking the time to listen to the podcast, it wasn't really with any rehearsal and was totally off the cuff, which to be honest I think gives for a more honest listening.

Out of all the internal masters I met, the one, which I knew practised, CIMA, which could actually fight and had many times and obviously successfully (otherwise I wouldn't of met him) was, Li Zun Si, who's XYLHQ line comes from, Mai Jinkui (I think he also had training from, Lu Song Gao, but dont know what relationship they had).

Li Zun Si, was a master of several types of Kung Fu, such as Cha Quan, had studied at Shaolin Si, back in the day for a period of time etc, but like I mentioned I am not really qualified to talk about him as I was not his student, best to ask, Jarek.

I have travelled to many, many places in China, but to be honest, wasn't that impressed with the overall skill level.

One of the reasons this is due to is, they just don't have the luxury to have spend time training, they are in the fields and in factories, working all day long and when they come home, they still need to tend to family matters like everyone else.

One master, which totally blew my mind was, Zhao Zhan Jun the "China meteor King", who specialised in rope dart and other projectiles, he has a mass array of weapons at his place and I am pretty sure he knew how to use all of them.

Foreigners have a romantic view of Chinese Kung Fu masters and that dream is usually shattered when you meet them, most of them chain smoke, eat piles of greasy food and drink alcohol with every meal, lol, and they only get up once and a while to bust a few moves and then sit back down.

As for DXYQ and other interal arts being viable methods of unarmed combat, I am sure at one point in time, when they were actually practised by people with actual experience they worked fine (maybe some of the movements are now archaic and outdated).

I mean if you grew up in a Chinese "gracie family" environment, where your dad was a mad mofo, you had 6 brothers and all you did was train all day, practice "yong fa", "shuai chiao" (most if not all old school serious schools trained a form of resistant grappling) and beat on each other, I am sure it would work fine, but that is not the case now. Arts like these due to their "secret squirrel" aspect have deteriorated, the element of "face" is a huge deterrent in progressing as a martial artist, I mean they would rather not fight than lose.

Japanese martial arts on the other hand has gone from strength to strength, through constant pressure testing in competitive environments, arts such as Kyokusin , Judo etc.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Fatal Rose on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:28 am

I also have interviews with Byron Jacobs and Ken Gullette as well. If anyone has anymore suggestions as to who they’d like me to interview please let me know.

I’m glad many of you so far enjoyed this interview, Jon is an awesome guy and extremely genuine.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:13 pm

@ Jon D - commiserations for all the crap you went through with your various teachers, can totally understand why you eventually made the switch. From what Jarek has said Li Zunsi really had the 'goods', just a shame he didn't leave behind that many students.

Can't recommend Ryan's (Fatal Rose) podcast enough, have put a link to it on my blog as well (http://wulinmingshi.com/2020/04/16/talking-fists-podcast-interview-with-jon-dyer-dai-style-xinyi/).
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:10 pm

nicklinjm wrote:@ Jon D - commiserations for all the crap you went through with your various teachers, can totally understand why you eventually made the switch. From what Jarek has said Li Zunsi really had the 'goods', just a shame he didn't leave behind that many students.

Can't recommend Ryan's (Fatal Rose) podcast enough, have put a link to it on my blog as well (http://wulinmingshi.com/2020/04/16/talking-fists-podcast-interview-with-jon-dyer-dai-style-xinyi/).


Thanks bro, I always appreciated your help in regards to the time and effort you helped me with my blog, all the best.

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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:31 pm

Glad to see Jon getting his views out there. I agree with the points he raised about teachers not always living up to expectations and about foriegners having fantasies about how it's like to study in China. Too many people want to hear how the Shaolin monks pick you up at the airport and whisk you away to a beautiful temple where Mr. Miyagi fulfills every martial arts fantasy you've ever had by teaching you openly but reality isn't like that. Teachers often want lots of money and end up teaching little, and sometimes the material is even fake. Not everyone does that but we should listen to the bad so we know what to look for.

It seems that perhaps Jon is like me: no matter what art he does he's still a kungfu guy. Doing the jibengong that seriously for that long at a certain point in your life sets you on a certain trajectory that can be hard to escape.

And BTW,I keep trying to get Jon to do a series of DVDs on Dai xinyi so maybe some of you could help me out with that? :) A little bird says he's sitting on a lot of quanpu and a mountain of other material never seen in the West. If he has the time, hopefully he bring some of that out into the open.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:57 pm

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, it's a good podcast. I also ended up gravitating towards BJJ back in 2011 for many of the same reasons. I was luckier with my teahers than you - perhaps because I only ever learned from 1st generation British students of Chinese teachers, I avoided a lot of the problems you mention (like secrets and money), and my teachers had no problem "throwing down" - they had plenty of experience in real fights, etc, But I didn't experience Chinese culture like you did, for better or for worse.

But still learning CMA has a set of problems associated with it. E.g. the amount of time that got shaved off by having to deal with the students who weren't martial at all and just wanted to learn forms all class can be a real hindrance to practical learning in my experience. There's also a lack of infrastructure - very few clubs are full time with multiple training opportunities per week.

In contrast, you walk into a BJJ academy (most towns and cities have one, two or more) and you've got a dedicated place full of mats and people who want nothing more than to train techniques and roll 24/7 :) You've got endless training partners and multiple classes per day, and the material is very practical. And you can pressure test things in a 'safe enough' environment. It's like finding an oasis in the desert. Obviously it does come with its own different set of problems, (e.g. BJJ is generally expensive in the UK, you will get injured, etc) but life is about trading one set of problems for a set that you prefer. There's no path wthout problems ;D

I always kept my hand in with CMA, I always kept my personal practice going, and a little bit of teaching on the side, and of course, thanks to the coronavirus BJJ is all closed now, and I'm in my back garden doing Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Xing Yi 24/7 ;D
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Overlord on Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:54 am

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Finny wrote:Good to see you again J_B!

I'll listen to the podcast later, but maybe a spoiler first - do you still practice Dai at all?


No Dai I mostly concentrate on Muay Thai now and BJJ, I'll still practice a few select movements for health reasons and if I feel like it.

DZQ

Hi DZQ
Sorry that your experiences make you switch your focus. I am curious about some of topics you raised and they are quite interesting.
1, Is squat monkey useful for combative applications ? If not what purpose does it serve?
2, Dai Xinyi and Henan Xinyi have same origins with different emphasis, in your opinions what make Dai Xinyi or Henan Xinyi alter the style. From what I heard, Luo Yang Xinyi has 32 hard moves and 32 soft moves influenced internally by Yi Jinjing(易筋經). While Dai was influenced by Shou Dong Chen Ji (守洞塵技—玉光周天功法)later on further influenced by Longmen (龍門)Daoist cultivation, what I am saying is, can squat monkey simply be the foundation of Daoist cultivation and nothing martial arts?
3,My lineage is Sun Fuyuan, Song style Xingyi. Master Sun in his youth also learnt Dai’s three fists in continuous sequence (routine) from both Chang Da and Chang Er, does the Dai lineage or you still preserved this skill set?
4, I found a big similarity between Xinyi/Xingyi and certain styles in Muaythai, any MT school/ style that you feel share similarities with Xinyi?
Thanks in advance for taking time read my query.
Over
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:02 am

I believe this is the Dai teacher referred to in the podcast. I think it might be helpful to post this video so we can see:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkWP2HM ... e=youtu.be


I think it looks really good.
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