Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:22 pm

Just because it looks good doesn't mean that he can fight, though...
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Overlord on Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:37 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Just because it looks good doesn't mean that he can fight, though...


Hi Mararten
I don’t judge a CMA masters skills purely on if can or cannot fight.

But it’s always important to address the real issues.

In this case, we know all the monkey squat help you building up strong leg foundations and very possibly internal explosive power. So the problem is, you have a very powerful mine/explosive, how do you deliver to enemy’s territory without being intercepted?
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:58 pm

Overlord wrote:
Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Finny wrote:Good to see you again J_B!

I'll listen to the podcast later, but maybe a spoiler first - do you still practice Dai at all?


No Dai I mostly concentrate on Muay Thai now and BJJ, I'll still practice a few select movements for health reasons and if I feel like it.

DZQ

Hi DZQ
Sorry that your experiences make you switch your focus. I am curious about some of topics you raised and they are quite interesting.
1, Is squat monkey useful for combative applications ? If not what purpose does it serve?
2, Dai Xinyi and Henan Xinyi have same origins with different emphasis, in your opinions what make Dai Xinyi or Henan Xinyi alter the style. From what I heard, Luo Yang Xinyi has 32 hard moves and 32 soft moves influenced internally by Yi Jinjing(易筋經). While Dai was influenced by Shou Dong Chen Ji (守洞塵技—玉光周天功法)later on further influenced by Longmen (龍門)Daoist cultivation, what I am saying is, can squat monkey simply be the foundation of Daoist cultivation and nothing martial arts?
3,My lineage is Sun Fuyuan, Song style Xingyi. Master Sun in his youth also learnt Dai’s three fists in continuous sequence (routine) from both Chang Da and Chang Er, does the Dai lineage or you still preserved this skill set?
4, I found a big similarity between Xinyi/Xingyi and certain styles in Muaythai, any MT school/ style that you feel share similarities with Xinyi?
Thanks in advance for taking time read my query.
Over



Squatting monkey is the foundation of the jibenkung and without sufficiency in it, all the other movements are kind of pointless, because they build upon the "kung fu" you should of attained from practice. Traditionally "dun hou shi" was supposed to be practiced for 3 years just squatting monkey and another 2 years for the stepping (yi zi bu etc) before learning anything else. So the squatting monkey is around "1,000" days of practice.
Obviously, I was not taught in this manner in this time and age, so I had to learn other movements together with it, but it still takes the same time to attain.

For health benefits, it strengthens the whole body, especially the feet, legs, lower back, stretches the elbow tendons etc etc, its 1st used as a stationary posture, though some schools might go straight onto, shu/zhan (contraction and expansion) and as Jarek pointed out on his blog, that may be due to concerns about raising blood pressure.
From my own experience that is not the case, but if you did not learn or practice properly, you may cause tension in the cervical vertebrae due to mis-alignment.

For fighting application use, primarily it is used to store, build and exert force, coming from the contraction and expansion of the torso, this drives all movements of the limb's and is used also to neutralise incoming force, since you can contract, you can maintain contact with the limbs, while the torso is safely away out of harm.
You don't suck in your stomach and you don't try and push it out, it's a deep contraction going all the way down into the pelvic basin and it combines the iliac crest etc
In time after a LONG time the area will start to build up and the area will become softer, larger and start to roll. It helps if you are not carrying too much girth (cause it gets in the way) and you cannot, do any type of core building exercises as used in external arts (ironbridge, sit-up etc etc) as it will prevent the relaxation needed.
You CANNOT train in weightlifting while you are doing, Dai, it will hinder your progress. Maybe after the basics are proficient, it might be ok, to do some added training, for the strength of the hands, wrists and stuff, but I am a believer in real internal power and skill, so it's most probably not necessary.

As for CMA history, its mostly subjective and I don't really put too much faith in any of it, so we can only make a guess and try and not let our feelings invade the topic.

I practiced the Luoyang XYLHQ and had learnt all of the empty handed forms (and did one of the weapons briefly) but never had access to the quan pu (which would have to be translated for me anyway) so I honestly can't comment on these 32 hard / 32 soft that you speak of.
This Yijing stuff sounds suspect and most probably made up.
This style for me was to be honest very external and devoid of any internal methods at all (I never learnt any Chi Kung at all from his school) it mostly consisted of "danba" as the foundation and a few other movements, then their "siba' and a long form (name eludes me).

As for Daoist sects influencing Dai's internal practice, I just don't know and I wouldn't even look into it, if anything, XYLHQ (zhong jie jing) middle section training is something which should have more credit into influencing, squatting monkey. I met several masters in Henan (Zhumadian, Zhoukou) who demonstrated this, but IMHO is was a cruder version of SM, as it didn't seem to possess the
same type of development (actual visible dantian, capable of rolling and issuing force) it mostly involved squatting and contracting the middle section, involving the hips, pelvis, ribcage etc.
So my answer is it's mostly coming from MAs and not the other way around.

Sanquan's origin is in Dai style, so of course we retain this, its the origin of 5 fists etc, haven't got much idea of what, Xing Yi Quan is doing with it.

4) There is no similarity with Xing Yi Quan and Muay Thai, apart from the fact that they hit people lol, I don't really think CMAs have a massive influence on MT, MT origins (another thing not worth giving yourself a headache about) probably comes from ancient, Khmer empire. There are Lanna (Northern) systems in Thailand, which use, Daap (sword) which have a very CMA influence, (use crescent kicks, slap hands) etc, there are Burmese and Cambodian styles which are all very similar, even Kalaripayatthu (however you are supposed to spell it) have simiarities.
I dont bother any more with MA history, I just practice what I like and hang around people I get on with haha, enjoy life brother.

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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:00 pm

Overlord wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Just because it looks good doesn't mean that he can fight, though...


Hi Mararten
I don’t judge a CMA masters skills purely on if can or cannot fight.

But it’s always important to address the real issues.

In this case, we know all the monkey squat help you building up strong leg foundations and very possibly internal explosive power. So the problem is, you have a very powerful mine/explosive, how do you deliver to enemy’s territory without being intercepted?


DXYQ yizibu if practiced diligently can step through to occupy the centre. Easier said then done though if the person knows how to fight.

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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:21 pm

Overlord wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Just because it looks good doesn't mean that he can fight, though...


Hi Mararten
I don’t judge a CMA masters skills purely on if can or cannot fight.

But it’s always important to address the real issues.

In this case, we know all the monkey squat help you building up strong leg foundations and very possibly internal explosive power. So the problem is, you have a very powerful mine/explosive, how do you deliver to enemy’s territory without being intercepted?

That's called fighting... If you don't judge a master by their fighting prowess do you judge them by their breakdancing skills?

I can understand Jon's frustration. I wandered for seven years in China, learning this or that from various teachers and masters that never took me serious or just took my money. I was ready to call it quits when my Master found me and made sure that my last four years in China made up for the previous seven (which weren't a total loss, but not worth slumming it in China all those years). Ironically, though, it was because I had learned so much Chinese during those years that I was even able to communicate with him and understand his teachings, so it all worked out..
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:48 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:If you don't judge a master by their fighting prowess do you judge them by their breakdancing skills?

Agree with you 100% there.

A: Dear master, in Karate tournament, when my opponent uses the earth strategy, moved in inch by inch with strong defense, what's the best strategy for me to use to deal with him?
B: You should not think about fighting all the time. You need to think more about Wu De 武德.

The above conversation is like a chicken talks to a duck. It's very sad that a Wu De teacher has a student who only care about fighting.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Overlord on Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:13 am

Thanks for the reply DZQ.
Last edited by Overlord on Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:53 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:If you don't judge a master by their fighting prowess do you judge them by their breakdancing skills?

Agree with you 100% there.

A: Dear master, in Karate tournament, when my opponent uses the earth strategy, moved in inch by inch with strong defense, what's the best strategy for me to use to deal with him?
B: You should not think about fighting all the time. You need to think more about Wu De 武德.

The above conversation is like a chicken talks to a duck. It's very sad that a Wu De teacher has a student who only care about fighting.

That's why I left my first Taijiquan teacher after a year and a half. I felt like IF he was able to fight he wasn't interested enough to teach me. I left the second one after only two months for the same reason. Life's too short to spend down the rabbit hole...
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:41 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:That's why I left my first Taijiquan teacher after a year and a half. I felt like IF he was able to fight he wasn't interested enough to teach me. I left the second one after only two months for the same reason. Life's too short to spend down the rabbit hole...

I have an old friend who went to the Chen Village, spent many years, and became disciple of a famous Chen Taiji teacher. When she came back to US, she has knee problem and had never mentioned how to use her Chen Taiji in fighting. It makes no sense to me. Why does anybody want to spend time in China to train CMA and not care about the "application"?
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:13 pm

The fact is that there aren't many skilled masters left and many won't immediately show you their skills. A lot of people in China are poor too and take the opportunity to earn some money. For a foreigner that arrives in China to learn Gongfu it will be extremely difficult to find the real thing unless they have a connection and even that is no guarantee. Without years of searching and a good command of the Chinese language and great people skills I wouldn't bother. It was worth it to me because I had other projects that I was working on and got married, etc.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby AJG on Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:23 am

Just listened to the Podcast. The thing I liked the most was the refreshing honesty.

Like many have already expressed here there are a lot of good things about Chinese Martial Arts, however the culture of secrecy, sometimes bordering on deceipt and the fact many so called Masters aren’t interested in really understanding how it works in combat is why it finds itself in the state it is, which is one step up from a folk dance in a lot of cases. They think they understand applications but unless you are trying the applications in sparring or semi-sparring you won’t develop anything. Potential loss of face stops them developing in any way and that’s a shame.

Having studied XYLH under a teacher for many years it was painfully frustrating that in a lot of cases my friend and I needed to spend a lot of time figuring things out on our own. What I do recall however is Jon saying Yao San Ba in XYLH was about expanding and contracting while walking which is correct, however so many teachers teach it with a horizontal waist turn (including my teacher originally but that’s not correct). That shows Job knows what he is talking about.

The biggest gift my teacher ever gave me was the advice to work the basics hard and to not learn too many styles. I remember him saying Xinyi is enough and he was right. I don’t fundamentally believe in long forms, so the drills in XYLH appeal to me. And the Paeda, at least the way I learned it is a partial bridge to sparring. Most of what I see online is two lumps of wood bumping into each other.

With respect to Dai style I have never trained it and the body movements are unfamiliar to me so I can’t critique it in any way. It’s hard to make out how the style could possibly work in application.

With respect to Jon moving away from CMA and onto something more physical and martially effective is not surprising (with the added bonus of no weirdos).

CMA may well decline and no one can do anything about it nor should we worry. Comfort comes from something one of my former teachers said when we found out Hung I Hsiang had passed away in the early 90's. He said “Nothing is ever lost, its just waiting to be rediscovered”
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby AJG on Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:28 am

The first move demonstrated in this clip is my favourite. A simple move but one that feels great when your torso begins to expand and contract and drive the movement of the fist. And that is the intensity by which XYLH should be trained. Its not Tai Chi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePEsgnTMd1c
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:02 am

AJG wrote:The first move demonstrated in this clip is my favourite. A simple move but one that feels great when your torso begins to expand and contract and drive the movement of the fist. And that is the intensity by which XYLH should be trained. Its not Tai Chi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePEsgnTMd1c

Looks good. What you said earlier about Yaoshuanba I don't really agree with, though. I've seen my Master do it both ways. It's one of his favourite techniques and he is a fighter. Nothing is ever set in stone. There are variations upon variations.
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:53 pm

AJG wrote:The first move demonstrated in this clip is my favourite. A simple move but one that feels great when your torso begins to expand and contract and drive the movement of the fist. And that is the intensity by which XYLH should be trained. Its not Tai Chi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePEsgnTMd1c

I prefer to spend my training time to train switch hands, or PM Gou Lou Can Shou.

I like to train head punch. I don't like to train body punch. Since I will never use my palms to strike on my opponent's chest, the body strike training has little value for me.

Switch hands:

Image

PM Gou Lou Can Shou:

Image
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Re: Talking Fists Podcast - Interview with Jon Dyer (Dai XYQ)

Postby Fatal Rose on Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:57 pm

New episode is up! It’s an interview with wingchun master Alex Richter. Hope you all enjoy!
Talking Fists Podcast
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